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The Current State of Scientology

Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
Complete nonsense.

Billions of people the world over report feelings of relief from prayer.

Mindfulness meditation is free. Want to get started? Google it.

My Bikram Yoga studio costs $100.00/month.
Bikram Yoga is a squirrel group selling a disguised Purification Rundown. Yes it can trace roots to the subcontinent but it's popularity is built on the results so many gained from the PR

This is OBVIOUS

Now howl your invalidation my cherished colleagues of esmb...
 

Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
The false foundation of Christ is the belief that the deceased cult leader is not dead, that he will return, and that he is the only one who can bring spiritual salvation to people. The other false foundation is that prayer, when "done correctly" (just as the claim that auditing works 100% if applied as "standard") has an actual physical impact on the world. That prayer prevents wars, car accidents, can heal people, can assure that someone's heart operation will be successful and so on.

"Ther power of prayer" is just like auditing - grandiose promises of superpowers, with no repeatable, predictable results. That's not science, that's just people's delusions. Its the faulty claims behind auditing and prayer: the claims that these are legit working practices that will work 100% of the time if performed properly/performed with enough faith.


Really it doesn't matter for you if it works or not? Are you being serious? :blink:

Cause when I buy a blender, all it matters if it works or not. If there is a religion, all it matters is if their practices work (produce the results they promise) or not. I can drop the scn lingo, and just go with "does it work or not", but the fact is: prayer doesn't work, doesn't give you the "superpowers from God".


I'm sorry, I find this claim incredulous. It has the same vibe that: "even you wogs are personally benefiting from scientology, without Hubbard this world would go to shit and there'd be nuclear war and stuff".

I don't buy that: "You benefit from our spiritual triumps" talk. Sorry. I live in a country ran on Roman and German law, and social programs created some 2 millenia after Christ. Not to mention democracy that was never mentioned by Christ.


Are these by the Mindfulness Association and MBLC (Mindfulness Based Living Course)? I know you can find free stuff online by people unconnected to them (sort of mindfulness free zoners), I have few issues with them. Its the so called "non-for-profit organisation" of Mindfulness Association that shares the money grubbing with scn (its still less nefarius than scn).


I used to think that. But then I started seeing the cultish elements of the Bikram guru thing. The guy said lies about himself that are of Hubbardian proportions. The various non-traditional elements he introduced are for added show, but bring no results, the heat is just for added mind-altering factor.Maybe that could be ok, if he told you that outright, but he won't. Instead he lies how its all just about the body.
His whole mindset was to "sell yoga to gullible white men", taking actual working parts from traditional yoga and adding some brainwashing to help monetize it. He has lawsuits about sex molestation on him, he fled the US not to pay the ~6 million $ he owes... the guy is a con man.

There's real and valuable Yoga schoools out there - ashtanga, sivananda and many more. I'm likewise not against meditiation, on the contrary I think its a great practice if done in a real way.I use it myself and I believe I achieved a lot of insight (subjective anecdotal stuff - I can't prove it, I can just say I see the results).
But that's real meditiation, not monetized mumbo-jumbo.

Traditional schools are to Bikram as real psychology was to Scientology.
We Christians have been here for two thousand years Kara K. And if you aren't one of us don't you think it somewhat presumptuous to claim you know what our faith is based upon?
 

Gib

Crusader
Anyone who wants to shitcan it is free to do so.

Anyone who wants to study it is also free to do so and you would be wise to improve your respect for our just and lawful rights
why study a false religion, a false philosophy when there is no clear or OT, no Bridge to total Freedom.
 

Gib

Crusader
We Christians have been here for two thousand years Kara K. And if you aren't one of us don't you think it somewhat presumptuous to claim you know what our faith is based upon?
doesn't matter what Christians believe, scinetologists believe they can go clear and then OT, and there is proof none exist, that is clear or OT do not exist or have been produced.
 

Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
doesn't matter what Christians believe, scinetologists believe they can go clear and then OT, and there is proof none exist, that is clear or OT do not exist or have been produced.
I've produced six Patriot Super Bowl victories and four Red Sox WS titles coaching the teams on a purely spiritual level.

I don't know why you believe you can prove there's no such thing as "OT" but you can't prove it to me
 

Gib

Crusader
I've produced six Patriot Super Bowl victories and four Red Sox WS titles coaching the teams on a purely spiritual level.

I don't know why you believe you can prove there's no such thing as "OT" but you can't prove it to me
do you have any certificates proving you did so on a spiritual level? Any trophies?

You are like reading the success stories in Advance Magazine, that shit don't work here.
 

Teanntás

Silver Meritorious Patron
do you have any certificates proving you did so on a spiritual level? Any trophies?

You are like reading the success stories in Advance Magazine, that shit don't work here.
What about the placebo effect (thinking makes it so)? That is solid established science.
 

programmer_guy

True Ex-Scientologist
do you have any certificates proving you did so on a spiritual level? Any trophies?

You are like reading the success stories in Advance Magazine, that shit don't work here.
Ha. You should have asked him how much money he has made from gambling on those items. :D

Never forget to ask the money question.
 
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Karakorum

supressively reasonable
We Christians have been here for two thousand years Kara K. And if you aren't one of us don't you think it somewhat presumptuous to claim you know what our faith is based upon?
Well, Christianity is open about its beliefs. You guys don't have "secret OT levels" type of nonsense (which I applaud btw). So I don't need to make presumptions: I can open a bible and rread what's there. I gan read the catholic catechissm or go to the UMC website and read.

Those are the beliefs I mentione din my previous post:

1. Christ, the deceased cult leader is not dead, that he will return, and that he is the only one who can bring spiritual salvation to people.
2. Prayer, when done correctly by a true believer,) has an actual physical impact on the world. That prayer prevents wars, car accidents, can heal people, can assure that someone's heart operation will be successful and so on.


If I misrepresented christian doctrine, or made a false asumption about Christ being the only savior, or the belief in the "power of prayer", please feel free to point out specific errors that I made and we can go from there.


I am aware there are subtle differences between various christian denominations btw. My beef though is mostly with belefs shared by all.
 
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Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
Well, Christianity is open about its beliefs. You guys don't have "secret OT levels" type of nonsense (which I applaud btw). So I don't need to make presumptions: I can open a bible and rread what's there. I gan read the catholic catechissm or go to the UMC website and read.

Those are the beliefs I mentione din my previous post:

1. Christ, the deceased cult leader is not dead, that he will return, and that he is the only one who can bring spiritual salvation to people.
2. Prayer, when done correctly by a true believer,) has an actual physical impact on the world. That prayer prevents wars, car accidents, can heal people, can assure that someone's heart operation will be successful and so on.


If I misrepresented christian doctrine, or made a false asumption about Christ being the only savior, or the belief in the "power of prayer", please feel free to point out specific errors that I made and we can go from there.


I am aware there are subtle differences between various christian denominations btw. My beef though is mostly with belefs shared by all.

Well now Kara K...

We have been discussing the meaning of scripture for quite some time and the conversation has, shall we say, entailed some spilled beer.

My belief is based upon first my observations of the conduct of the faithful. That got my nose into scripture. From there I found much wisdom in the teachings of The Nazarene.

One of the Supreme Christian beliefs is that we cannot gain salvation on our own. In fact there is a verse in one of Paul's letters to the Corinthians I've long thought apropos to Hubbard. Paul assures the faithful that those who seek human means of salvation would be sent strong delusion...

Think a bit about that one.

Now...

The first point you cite is common to most of the different sets of christian doctrine and dogma but I don't subscribe to it per se...




We have an extensive body of material from NDE's. The most common tale involves being clinically dead in a hospital, exterior with perception and accurate recall of things said and done in the OR and then...

Christians say Jesus appears.

Jews say an angel appears.

And good hearted decent unchurched people say "a being of light" appears.

All three then report being conduct into Paradise.


In our Gospels The Nazarene is quoted as saying "I am the Truth, the Light, and the Way. No man comes to the Father but through me"

From the NDE material it is my belief that Jesus spoke the truth but that the Truth, the Light and the Way are not limited to the person of Jesus. He still remains unique in that he is the only human type person ever reported as the guide into paradise.

And Christian belief has many, many facets...

You are hereby commended to a study of our Judeochristian scripture
 

Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
Ha. You should have asked him how much money he has made from gambling on those items. :D

Never forget to ask the money question.
Can't do that.

No betting.

League rules.

I can't physically enter the locker room now. If I were to violate league rules I wouldn't be able to get in spiritually either
 

Karakorum

supressively reasonable
We have an extensive body of material from NDE's. The most common tale involves being clinically dead in a hospital, exterior with perception and accurate recall of things said and done in the OR and then...

Christians say Jesus appears.

Jews say an angel appears.

And good hearted decent unchurched people say "a being of light" appears.

All three then report being conduct into Paradise.


In our Gospels The Nazarene is quoted as saying "I am the Truth, the Light, and the Way. No man comes to the Father but through me"

From the NDE material it is my belief that Jesus spoke the truth but that the Truth, the Light and the Way are not limited to the person of Jesus. He still remains unique in that he is the only human type person ever reported as the guide into paradise.

And Christian belief has many, many facets...

You are hereby commended to a study of our Judeochristian scripture
Thanks for the reply.

First, an NDE is rare. There are far more people who go back from a coma or clinical death without any sort of NDE experience than those who have the sort of NDE you describe.

Secondly: As you mentioned: people from different religious backgrounds experience and interpret NDE differently. Japanese buddhists tend to interpret the "light and tunnel" as evil and possibly a messenger from naraka, because white happens to be the color of death and doom in Japanese culture.

Thirdly: NDE, by its very definition, is something people have when their brains are not functioning properly (to put it mildly).
To use a counterexample: It is common for people unde rthe influence of DMT to see "mechanical elves". Does that mean that the hyper realm of "mechanical elves" really exists? Or does it simply mean that people's brains malfunction in similar ways when they take DMT?
To me that's the most important factor: How can we trust people's accounts from a time their brains weren't functioning well?


All in all: I find the argument from NDE to be a weak one.
 

F.Bullbait

Oh, a wise guy,eh?
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Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
Thanks for the reply.

First, an NDE is rare. There are far more people who go back from a coma or clinical death without any sort of NDE experience than those who have the sort of NDE you describe.

Secondly: As you mentioned: people from different religious backgrounds experience and interpret NDE differently. Japanese buddhists tend to interpret the "light and tunnel" as evil and possibly a messenger from naraka, because white happens to be the color of death and doom in Japanese culture.

Thirdly: NDE, by its very definition, is something people have when their brains are not functioning properly (to put it mildly).
To use a counterexample: It is common for people unde rthe influence of DMT to see "mechanical elves". Does that mean that the hyper realm of "mechanical elves" really exists? Or does it simply mean that people's brains malfunction in similar ways when they take DMT?
To me that's the most important factor: How can we trust people's accounts from a time their brains weren't functioning well?


All in all: I find the argument from NDE to be a weak one.

NDE's happen when the brain is not functioning at all; the electroencephalagraph is flatlined my friend.

NDE material is surely parascientific. I personally have experiences which tend to affirm the material
 

Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
I'm Toulouse Low Tech, no links.

I've never even googled NDE's but you might get answers to this and many other questions if you do.

The minister of my church back in Bahhstin worked with some NDE researchers a few years ago so I do have one excellent source with firsthand experience with many who have had NDE's
 

Karakorum

supressively reasonable
I'm Toulouse Low Tech, no links.

I've never even googled NDE's but you might get answers to this and many other questions if you do.

The minister of my church back in Bahhstin worked with some NDE researchers a few years ago so I do have one excellent source with firsthand experience with many who have had NDE's
I'm of course not a neuroscientist and I'm open to new information.

But from what I read so far, I'm under the impression that NDEs are a product of a malfunctioning brain at a time of dramatic collapse within the organism (it is called "near death" for a reason). Experiments ran on humans would be unethical, so we don't get too much strict observation on humans. But we know in other mammals, such as rats, the brain goes into some sort of frantic activity once the heart and breathing stops.
 
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