MainStream Society's Humiliation of Minority Spiritual and Religious Pursuits

[The_Fixer]

Yes, I do know those songs. In fact I would say I know all Neil Diamond songs very well as they were all I heard as a kid . I think I heard "Hot August Night" at least once a week for 12 years. I have all his songs on a thumb drive in my car so I can listen whenever I want. Listening to him keeps me connected to my mum. We played "Be" at her funeral.

Yeah I love this album too. I first heard it well after my Scn days, heading into my 2nd marriage.

I really like how the album flows into "Anthem".

For me it's a song of finding peace. Took me a long time. Still workin' on it.....

I know what you say about the Scn experience. Probably would have been happy to miss out on it, but I didn't and as such was a part of making me who I am today, for better or worse.

All this digging into the nuances of what happened isn't going to change a thing and often only makes us reflect in a way which isn't really healthy. More demonstrates how we haven't let it go and won't move forward.

In a nutshell, over analysing it all. Does no good. At the end of the day, do we really come up with all the answers we're looking for?

Or is that really the agenda?

 

[Emma]

I know what you say about the Scn experience. Probably would have been happy to miss out on it, but I didn't and as such was a part of making me who I am today, for better or worse.

All this digging into the nuances of what happened isn't going to change a thing and often only makes us reflect in a way which isn't really healthy. More demonstrates how we haven't let it go and won't move forward.

In a nutshell, over analysing it all. Does no good. At the end of the day, do we really come up with all the answers we're looking for?

I think you are spot on with this. For me it's manifested in having no interest in this board. I've tried to give it away many times but no one wants it. So I've been stuck with it, and therefore stuck in antiscio world, which is nearly as bad a scio world.

No matter what you do, you can't change the past. It's probably healthier to look back at it as a learning experience, take what you can from it and move on with your life. That's not to say you have to forget about it. If you have the energy for it and want to protest it or talk about then great, but don't let it's memory or effects hang over you for the rest of your life.

I posted this back in 2013:

I never expected anyone to hang around for too long and only made a rank of 10,000 as a joke. I never thought anyone could or would stay that long.

If ESMB was a true revolving door like I naively thought it would be, it would be easy to manage. I thought that people would come, read, reach an understanding that they've lived through a nightmare and that they are now free, share their experiences & move on with their lives.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Yep, I agree with you both. I have never had any interest (after the initial burst of freedom) in talking cult ... but (as I must have said a million times now) I really do enjoy the interaction with some fantastic people here and always have done.

I expect we each have a few scars but find me someone who doesn't whether they have had cult experience or not.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

I like this post, and think there is a lot of truth in it. But just as I contemplated pressing the 'like' button', it occurred to me that liking your post would make me unpopular on the board. I haven't been following your posting history on ESMB, but I intuit that you are regarded here as someone with extreme views. The fact that I hesitated to 'like' your post tells me that a lot of what you are saying about Scieno-think and anti-Scieno think (as manifested on this board) being similar is true. There's a party line to toe here. Which is fine. I'm not fighting any battles in relation to Scientology. I couldn't care less about anybody's party lines. Perhaps that makes me aloof. But it's interesting that even on a board like this, a party line develops. I'm not agin that, but I think it's worth being aware of it.

I think that the idea that people (anywhere) think 'rationally' based on their perception of truth is nonsense. People have their preconceived notions, and they filter everything through those notions, rather than just observing and seeing what they see.

There is no party line here ... honestly there really isn't one. I made a point from day one of toeing nobody's line apart from my own and I admire others that do the same ... we are not cultic or tribal here, though I expect there are pockets of it now and again as there are across the world.

Having said that I do understand that it can very easy to slip into the thing you are talking about and I'm glad you are not doing it.

 

[JustSheila]

All good things in moderation.

Cults are extreme. Fanatics are extreme. They hurt people.

A little bit of chocolate or bacon is great. Too much will throttle your arteries or kill your pets. Cults work to suck people in to take everything they can from them and control them. It's not rocket science.

But even a little chocolate is deadly to some animals.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

All good things in moderation.

Cults are extreme. Fanatics are extreme. They hurt people. There is no anti-cult movement, but there probably should be.

A little bit of chocolate is great. Too much will throttle your arteries or kill your pets. Cults work to suck people in to take everything they can from them and control them. It's not rocket science.

But even a little chocolate is deadly to some animals.

Hmmmmm ... I'll have to disagree with you there ... too much chocolate is never enough!

 

[Tanchi]

I think you are spot on with this. For me it's manifested in having no interest in this board. I've tried to give it away many times but no one wants it. So I've been stuck with it, and therefore stuck in antiscio world, which is nearly as bad a scio world.

No matter what you do, you can't change the past. It's probably healthier to look back at it as a learning experience, take what you can from it and move on with your life. That's not to say you have to forget about it. If you have the energy for it and want to protest it or talk about then great, but don't let it's memory or effects hang over you for the rest of your life.

I posted this back in 2013:

I appreciate all you have done to keep this board going. I post rarely, but I have found ESMB to be a wealth of information. As a hesitant to post never in, I value this site for the archive.

I would hate to see this wealth of info go the way of Lerma's research.

 

[JustSheila]

I think you are spot on with this. For me it's manifested in having no interest in this board. I've tried to give it away many times but no one wants it. So I've been stuck with it, and therefore stuck in antiscio world, which is nearly as bad a scio world.

No matter what you do, you can't change the past. It's probably healthier to look back at it as a learning experience, take what you can from it and move on with your life. That's not to say you have to forget about it. If you have the energy for it and want to protest it or talk about then great, but don't let it's memory or effects hang over you for the rest of your life.

I posted this back in 2013:

Wow, Emma.

That's awful that you feel that way about this board.

Many of us have little to no contact with other exes outside this Board and have made wonderful friendships. I never tire of the inside jokes (really, I don't) and the span of skills and experience here that are shared between us are priceless, whether those are construction skills, management skills, writing skills or some other skill set. Rarely a day goes by when I log in here that I don't learn something, but it's usually not about Scientology anymore and when it is, it's a different way of looking at it, and that's always cool.

I also never tire of survivor stories of those who have overcome great obstacles to make things work well in their lives despite everything, and this site is chockful of them. Strong people. Terrific people. Fascinating, smart, humorous and worldly people, many of which are just beginning to learn how awesome and strong they are, as well as how much they actually deserve to have happy, successful lives.

In my life, the negative effects of Scientology on my family will never completely disappear. Every once in a while, one of the false notions instilled by Scientology causes a certain family member to do some cold, hurtful, irrational thing. This happens to a number of us. We get past it as it happens, of course, and whether we discuss it on the Board or not, it is always comforting to be reminded we have friends who also go through or have gone through similar.

My life is good. Despite nine years of my youth wasted in the Sea Org and the years afterward with the mixed-up ideas of Scientology, I've managed to start my life over and make good of it. My job is stable, retirement is pretty well set, my child is grown and financially independent, my health is okay and I have a lot of friends and pretty good family relationships. I've caught up with life learning that I was denied in the SO and always continue to learn, because I enjoy it. I've developed many skills in different areas and still do. It's a good year. Things are good and keep getting better and I am happy.

I love this Board. It was puzzling to me why you allowed Alanzo back, since he's never apologized for the vicious, personal attacks of good people who are members of this Board. He has always taken the most controversial side, even if he had to flip his views to do so (i.e., from Marty hater to Marty lover, from cult exposer to cult protector). He once made a good point of some people getting too fanatical about attacking cults to the point where they themselves were abusive, but he made that point years ago and has already driven it into the ground. Now, it's just stupid, IMO. Cults are by definition fanatical and controlling. End of story.

I won't be commenting again on any more of Alanzo's posts, because I know where it will go. Where it always does.

"Stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

I hope you learn to love your website again like others here do and just want you to know it's still a great website. Thanks for having us, and good to see you.

 

[Emma]

That's awful that you feel that way about this board.

It's not the board - not really. It's just the pressure to always be "on". By that I mean, checking for spammers, moderating new users, checking reported posts etc. Fundraising each year. You might not realise it but I HATE that part. I always feel guilty about it.

I love you guys. It's not the people, it's just the board is a bit of a chore.

However I might have found a solution to it all. I'm just looking into a few options now. I'll let you know later what's happening.

 

[Alanzo]

I like this post, and think there is a lot of truth in it. But just as I contemplated pressing the 'like' button', it occurred to me that liking your post would make me unpopular on the board. I haven't been following your posting history on ESMB, but I intuit that you are regarded here as someone with extreme views. The fact that I hesitated to 'like' your post tells me that a lot of what you are saying about Scieno-think and anti-Scieno think (as manifested on this board) being similar is true. There's a party line to toe here. Which is fine. I'm not fighting any battles in relation to Scientology. I couldn't care less about anybody's party lines. Perhaps that makes me aloof. But it's interesting that even on a board like this, a party line develops. I'm not agin that, but I think it's worth being aware of it.

I think that the idea that people (anywhere) think 'rationally' based on their perception of truth is nonsense. People have their preconceived notions, and they filter everything through those notions, rather than just observing and seeing what they see.

I have no problem liking this post. In fact I gave it a "Winner!"

When I was a Scientologist, I was very tribal. I justified all my crazy beliefs, defended against and explained away any factual evidence that would call them into question.

Then, when I became an anti-Scientologist, I believed that I would never fall into that trap again because hey - I'm not in a cult any more.

But then I started being skeptical of my own anti-Scientology beliefs.

And, just like I did in Scientology, after I began questioning these, Anti-Scientology collapsed on me too.

It was then I realized that it wasn't being in a cult that makes you a cult member, it's being human that makes you a cult member.

All you have to do is assume some group narrative, such as a LibTard Hillary stance, and you'll justify and fight against any counterfactual information that challenges your present beliefs. And you will seek out your other tribe members for further justifications and defenses to your present belief system. And it is through this process of always defending and justifying your beliefs, and never tolerating them being questioned, that you become trapped in cults, and anti-cults.

This isn't just Scientologists and Anti-Scientologists, it's Christians and anti-Christians, Democrats and Republicans. It's everyone.

No one traps you in a cult.

You trap yourself.

 

[Bill]

This is a great example of the socially constructed nightmare that the Anti-Cult/Anti-Scientology mindset instills in its membership.

Over the top exaggerations, all or nothing thinking, and run away hysteria.

Thank you for that.

Since Leah has specifically said she isn't anti-Scientology, I think you should not use her image for your anti-anti-Scientology propaganda.

 

[Alanzo]

Since Leah has specifically said she isn't anti-Scientology, I think you should not use her image for your anti-anti-Scientology propaganda.

Hi Bill -

I missed that.

Where did Leah say she wasn't anti-Scientology?

 

[Bill]

Hi Bill -

I missed that.

Where did Leah say she wasn't anti-Scientology?

In various interviews. If you watched the Aftermath, you would have noticed that she has NEVER criticized the beliefs and practices of Scientologists, she has ONLY ever criticized the abuses.

Show me where she has EVER criticized the beliefs and practices of Scientologists.

 

[Alanzo]

In various interviews. If you watched the Aftermath, you would have noticed that she has NEVER criticized the beliefs and practices of Scientologists, she has ONLY ever criticized the abuses.

Show me where she has EVER criticized the beliefs and practices of Scientologists.

So you can't produce a single time when she ever said she was not anti-scientologist. Okay. I'll answer yours.

Here's one time where Leah (falsely) criticized the beliefs and practices of Scientology. It was in the Hollywood Reporter, her kick-off to Season 2:

"Asked to explain these "abusive practices," Remini takes a deep breath, then lays out some foundational principles. "Scientology policy dictates that children are grown men and women in little bodies. They believe a 7-year-old girl should not shudder at being passionately kissed. That's in Dianetics," she says, referencing L. Ron Hubbard's 1950 book that establishes core tenets. "If you join the Sea Org [a clergy class with a nautical heritage] as a child, your parents give you over to Scientology. Children are treated as crew. They are assets. And if a child is molested, that child and/or parent cannot go to the police, because it's against policy. They handle it in Scientology. They will usually bring the molester in and give them spiritual 'auditing,' or counseling." The victim, she continues, "gets punished for 'pulling it in,' which is a Scientology term that means you did something that you're not telling the church about — and that's why you received the abuse. The child is usually made to do some kind of amends, to make up for what happened to them."
​

"Remini (who says she once was falsely accused of being "Out 2D" — Scientology's term for having premarital sex — after church officials found lace panties in her drawer) argues that "there are no victims in Scientology. Anything that happens to you in Scientology happens to you because you made it happen."​

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/f...rusade-i-want-a-federal-investigation-1027737

Sorry. I was a Scientologist for 16 years. I never believed in pedophilia.

This is false.

 

[Bill]

So you can't produce a single time when she ever said she was not anti-scientologist. Okay. I'll answer yours.

Here's one time where Leah (falsely) criticized the beliefs and practices of Scientology. It was in the Hollywood Reporter, her kick-off to Season 2:

"Asked to explain these "abusive practices," Remini takes a deep breath, then lays out some foundational principles. "Scientology policy dictates that children are grown men and women in little bodies. They believe a 7-year-old girl should not shudder at being passionately kissed. That's in Dianetics," she says, referencing L. Ron Hubbard's 1950 book that establishes core tenets. "If you join the Sea Org [a clergy class with a nautical heritage] as a child, your parents give you over to Scientology. Children are treated as crew. They are assets. And if a child is molested, that child and/or parent cannot go to the police, because it's against policy. They handle it in Scientology. They will usually bring the molester in and give them spiritual 'auditing,' or counseling." The victim, she continues, "gets punished for 'pulling it in,' which is a Scientology term that means you did something that you're not telling the church about — and that's why you received the abuse. The child is usually made to do some kind of amends, to make up for what happened to them."
​

"Remini (who says she once was falsely accused of being "Out 2D" — Scientology's term for having premarital sex — after church officials found lace panties in her drawer) argues that "there are no victims in Scientology. Anything that happens to you in Scientology happens to you because you made it happen."​

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/f...rusade-i-want-a-federal-investigation-1027737

Sorry. I was a Scientologist for 16 years. I never believed in pedophilia.

This is false.

Ah! No wonder! I just didn't understand your definition of anti-Scientology. In your universe, the abusive policies ARE part of Scientology and criticizing those abusive policies is anti-Scientology. It isn't the auditing that you are defending, it isn't the beliefs in "Clear" and "OT" you are defending -- it is the abusive policies you are defending! Now I understand. This clears things up quite nicely.

(In your quote from Leah, she is only criticizing the abuses -- you didn't notice?)

 

[lotus]

Ah! No wonder! I just didn't understand your definition of anti-Scientology. In your universe, the abusive policies ARE part of Scientology and criticizing those abusive policies is anti-Scientology. It isn't the auditing that you are defending, it isn't the beliefs in "Clear" and "OT" you are defending -- it is the abusive policies you are defending! Now I understand. This clears things up quite nicely.

Exactly!

This is how Alanzo adresses such exes abusive TRUE experiences in trying to reframe their cognitive in the belief they were reframed (anti-sch cult) into this false thinking that those people, have not been harmed by such abuse or are having trauma. It doesn't exist in reality..it's a false belief implanted by the anti-cult cult

Alanzo has done extensive research and concluded cult PTSD doesn't exist. He became an authority on the subject and wants you to agree.

What troubles my mind and shall be good questions for Alanzo To ask Alanzo are these ones:

• Why Alanzo is on a crusade into denying such abuses (some others encounter) and turn them into an implanted belief??
• Why is he such concerned about others belief in the reality of the abuses THEY suffered and are trying to integrate????

THERE, would lie the right answers IMO

Caution to the lurker:

I know quite a bit in traumas and abuses since I am part of a professional team who addresses those issues particularly in the field of organizational psychological abuses ( health and social services providers to the elders and vulnerable: read: freak SJW)

I' be done extensive researches over the last 3 years to help working out services trajectories and needed psycho social support. The experts in my area knows of me.(and that I am a pain in the ass regarding elder abuse)

This , to issue a warning about what Alanzo is doing and that can reveal dammageable.

You recall the beautiful young Adam who took out his life, not that long ago? Adam had obviously entier dépression and posdibly à trauma for being deprived of his daddy, per cult abuse sp rules and rince his suffering was too intense he ended it.

Thus my point is the first step in healing is to acknowledge our suffering and it's causes. For many people, when they leave the cult they are suffering and for some other the abuses will intensify ( family disconnection, fair game, looking eternity, some will get back soon on their feet, while some others will encounter severe depression or PTSD (SO members escaping)

So don't let any charlatan play with your mental. and emotional state or suggest you have been implanted, neither let anybody convince you you have been abused or hypnotized if not the case. The only expert in what happened to you is YOU and your inner suffering is the red light indicating there must have been events that created it and must be healed.

Then , if you need get help by a professional ( psychologists are having great new techniques that work fine and quite fast)
But, be careful with the freezoner charlatans who may pull out your crimes or exorcise your entities..unless you want a mental illness. Scientology auditing in not a therapy and has nothing to address depression , anxiety and PTSD.

Be your own advisor and a nice rule , when goingbthrugh is to stay of people who advice you with their solution or either want to enlighten you with their conditions..the often are people who are running compulsive savior or guru syndrome for avoiding to look after their own issues. A social worker may be of good help.

End.

 

[Alanzo]

Ah! No wonder! I just didn't understand your definition of anti-Scientology. In your universe, the abusive policies ARE part of Scientology and criticizing those abusive policies is anti-Scientology. It isn't the auditing that you are defending, it isn't the beliefs in "Clear" and "OT" you are defending -- it is the abusive policies you are defending! Now I understand. This clears things up quite nicely.

(In your quote from Leah, she is only criticizing the abuses -- you didn't notice?)

First, you made a claim that Leah was not an anti-Scientologist.

And when I asked you where she said this, you had nothing to back up your claim.

Then you asked me to "Show me where she has EVER criticized the beliefs and practices of Scientologists."

And I did. I provided the full context for you.

Scientologists do not believe that a 7 year old girl should not shudder from a kiss from a grown man - even a passionate one. The 2nd SP act is absolutely against pedophilia. No where in any of Hubbard's writings on the 2D after DMSMH does he ever promote pedophilia in any way - always saying its one of the worst aberrations.

This is where Leah criticized the beliefs and practices of Scientology. And, because she was a member for 34 years, she knows Scientologists do not believe in pedophilia - and yet she told the Hollywood Reporter that they do to promote her show.

After I show this to you, you say this:

It isn't the auditing that you are defending, it isn't the beliefs in "Clear" and "OT" you are defending -- it is the abusive policies you are defending! Now I understand. This clears things up quite nicely.

The intellectual honesty you display here is disappointing.

But that's to be expected if you've gotten used to a bubble world where none of your beliefs are ever challenged.

 

[lotus]

I think you are spot on with this. For me it's manifested in having no interest in this board. I've tried to give it away many times but no one wants it. So I've been stuck with it, and therefore stuck in antiscio world, which is nearly as bad a scio world.

No matter what you do, you can't change the past. It's probably healthier to look back at it as a learning experience, take what you can from it and move on with your life. That's not to say you have to forget about it. If you have the energy for it and want to protest it or talk about then great, but don't let it's memory or effects hang over you for the rest of your life.

I posted this back in 2013:

I get that.

I myself (long time) lost interest in the Scieno and analysing thing.

But more than that ESMB might be the larger data, testimonies and discussion base available to dig in for people who questions the COS.

Also, over the years people began to share their pieces of life wisdom , so we learn from eachother and this is invaluable.

So much I learned and still learning ( even to do my renos and my car body repairs lol) from members ; sharing on ordinary topics of life, like aging, loosing dear ones, forgiving, friendship, giving up...because there is a large pool here of meaningful people who are kind, genuine and clever.

What I learned from taking example in some people here is immensely helping me in a very though battle I have to go through, alone as my ressources were purposely deprived. Something similar as OSA would do to destroy people.

The many inspiration I found here in persistence and resiliency are helping me greatly in these days.

Things evolve and ESMB has too and a lot of people keep coming for they made friends..this is what a community is and in that regard you accomplished something's extraordinaire..and you are almost a" Saint" Em to have kept it on rails no matter your human flaws or unpopular decisions, you always acted fairly and kept in mind the board interest to keep aligned with its goals.

Chapeau Emma!

Chapeau

 

[Bill]

First, you made a claim that Leah was not an anti-Scientologist.

And when I asked you where she said this, you had nothing to back up your claim.

Then you asked me to "Show me where she has EVER criticized the beliefs and practices of Scientologists."

And I did. I provided the full context for you.

Scientologists do not believe that a 7 year old girl should not shudder from a kiss from a grown man - even a passionate one. The 2nd SP act is absolutely against pedophilia. No where in any of Hubbard's writings on the 2D after DMSMH does he ever promote pedophilia in any way - always saying its one of the worst aberrations.

This is where Leah criticized the beliefs and practices of Scientology. And, because she was a member for 34 years, she knows Scientologists do not believe in pedophilia - and yet she told the Hollywood Reporter that they do to promote her show.

After I show this to you, you say this:


The intellectual honesty you display here is disappointing.

But that's to be expected if you've gotten used to a bubble world where none of your beliefs are ever challenged.

Yeah, no. You don't back up what you are claiming with any valid facts, just your biased opinion of what you imagine Leah meant. Leah wasn't saying anything about what "Scientologists believe" but what Hubbard actually wrote but you ignore that and imagine what Leah must have been hinting.

You create this imaginary cult you call "anti-Scientology cult" with no facts. Where is this group? How many members does this group have? I haven't seen the group. Where do they meet? You are the only one who thinks there is this "anti-Scientology cult". Talk about a bubble of your own creation.

You love to insult people you don't know and have never met claiming "you've gotten used to a bubble world" BASED ON WHAT? You know nothing yet you love to insult me and others here.

You come off as an insulting, ignorant, abusive, deluded cultist. But I don't know you so I won't assume that's what you really are like.

 

[lotus]

You love to insult people you don't know and have never met claiming "you've gotten used to a bubble world" BASED ON WHAT? You know nothing yet you love to insult me and others here.

You come off as an insulting, ignorant, abusive, deluded cultist. But I don't know you so I won't assume that's what you really are like.

Did you forget bitter????