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lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
Hence that's a strawman.due to she didn't say that. Lotus was expressing a concern for newbies-new lurkers.
Thanks FBM
Words I never said are being put in my mouth these last few days,
Although I expected it, I appreciate facts are straightened. Yes I expressed a concern I still have. ( certainly not alone) I value the work and effort Emma put in here and the precious resource it has become for people in need of information or support.

I don't find amusing some sort of behaviors..not at all...
 

Free Being Me

Crusader
It is not a straw man. Lotus is holding the position that lurkers needs to be protected from... us, our discourse? More so, they need a safe place to land. For me that is a very condescending view towards whoever would read this. I am merely ridiculing hers and others position, not trying to misrepresent her. If you can not see that this has happened as a way to criticize Alanzo then I suggest you do a search on it.

Ok, I am not defending Alanzo. I think he has a lot to answer for with how he has handled himself since he came back.

I am simply pointing out that he has a god damn right to be here, and whilst participating, should be treated with the same respect as you would want yourself. The golden rule. I've explained my reasoning on this already.

No. I don't think Alanzo holds to that either.

Why is it so hard to grasp the concept of a forum?

When have people here ever not held extremely different positions? Sometimes even more polarized then they are now?

Here's one classy example, I was trying to find another thread but I found this nugget instead, it's an old drama over the perceived Freezone stalking. the reason I post it is because it holds a special spot in my heart. That post is one of the major reasons why I never ended up in the Freezone or anything like it. I realized that rather then just leaving Scientology and still believing in the "tech", I was gonna kick the habit completely.

You think drama is bad? I don't. I remember this as the "Freezone which hunt", this and other threads such as this one.

https://www.forum.exscn.net/threads/esmb-and-the-freezone-lets-have-it-out.6350/

I do wish that the civil tone would come back though, but I think 2008 was an entirely different era, where a lot of posters felt that there was more value in the written word, in comparison to how it is today.

God I wish Nexus was back.

Edit: Oooh I found another golden one, started by Alanzo even. https://www.forum.exscn.net/threads/trolling-for-business-on-esmb.9682/
That's fine and really between you and Lotus when you get down to it. I was merely pointing out a fallacy. You keep calling for respect and civility over and over again so I'll point this out to you.

I'll state my position. I came by to say something nice about the board since I heard it was closing. Since then have I called anyone an a**hole or told them to f-off or labeled anyone with the t-word or stated who needs to leave or told anyone how to think or feel or trash talk people not here or any of that rot? Hmmm? Have I? The answer is no.

I was talking about newbies/lurkers, you keep steering the convo back to Alanzo which I think is a piss poor topic. Can we talk about something else?
 
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Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
That's fine and really between you and Lotus when you get down to it. I was merely pointing out a fallacy. You keep calling for respect and civility over and over again so I'll point this out to you.

I'll state my position. I came by to say something nice about the board since I heard it was closing. Since then have I called anyone an a**hole or told them to f-off or labeled anyone with the t-word or stated who needs to leave or told anyone how to think or feel or or trash talk people not here or any of that rot? Hmmm? Have I? The answer is no.

I was talking about newbies/lurkers, you keep steering the convo back to Alanzo which I think is a piss poor topic. Can we talk about something else?
OK, let's talk about something else.

Let's talk about what's good for Newbies on ESMB.

I wrote this about an ESMB environment that is clearly better than the one you proposed for ESMB.

What do you think about it?
 

Veda

Sponsor
Hubbard totally believed in brainwashing.

OW tech, writing down OWs, comes straight out of Maoist Recondition camps as I have shown for tears on my blog.

But Hubbard also believed in Psychs from the Planet Farsec.

Just because Hubbard believed in it does not make it so.
All I stated was that the use of the words "cult" and "brainwashing," to characterize Scientology, are the two biggies that bugged Hubbard and now bug Miscavige.
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
All I stated was that the use of the words "cult" and "brainwashing," to characterize Scientology, are the two biggies that bugged Hubbard and now bug Miscavige.
Which are irrelevant to reality, and to the interests of newbies

It's important to stay out of pseudo-scientific bullshit, whether Hubbard and Miscavige might approve or not.

Their opinions on how you should pursue the truth, and to conclude, are completely irrelevant.

What's important is that you use scientifically validated and objectively-based ideas and concepts to understand your experience in a "cult", rather than manipulative bullshit.

Wouldn't you agree?
 
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I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Where (apart from on some of the hypnotism threads) have posters here been agreeing that they were 'brainwashed' @Alanzo?

I'm not talking about discussion regarding the possibility that hubbard was trying to 'brainwash' us all ... I'm asking you for posts/threads where we all agreed that we actually were.
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Where (apart from on some of the hypnotism threads) have posters here been agreeing that they were 'brainwashed' @Alanzo?

I'm not talking about discussion regarding the possibility that hubbard was trying to 'brainwash' us all ... I'm asking you for posts/threads where we all agreed that we actually were.
I get it.

So this concept of "brainwashing" never actually existed!

Sorry sweetie. I was here. You can't play that game with me.

Maybe with someone else, but not with me.
 

Veda

Sponsor
-snip-

What's important is that you use scientifically validated and objectively-based ideas and concepts to understand your experience in a "cult"

-snip-

From the corporate Scientology operated web site, 'Scientology Myths':

"Scientologists find it very offensive when people call Scientology a cult. The word 'cult' is now the most hateful thing you can call a religion. It's used as a slur. It's used by bigots. Not just against Scientology, but against many new minority religions. These are the actions of 'hate'."
sea_org.jpg
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
I'm not playing a game, I am asking you to show me where these agreements were discussed and made about us being 'brainwashed'.

Just show me one post or thread please.
I never read on this board people saying "I"ve been or we've been brainwashed"

There were threads, from Veda (if memory serves) about brainwashing techniques and discussions about how it could have been or not implemented in some pieces of tech (processes or training) Some agreed there was manipulation techniques but most disagree they were either brainwashed or subjected to hypnosis.

There are as many shades of opinions regarding these topics as there are people discussing it.
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Could you post that article here in full please (and any future ones where they lead to your blog) ... that way you may get some responses?

Also, please answer my question above.
The link is to another post I wrote on ESMB. You won't get herpes by clicking on it, I swear.

Are you kidding me with your second request of me? You want me to link to one ESMB thread where Scientology used brainwashing on its adherents?

OK

Took me less than 5 seconds to find one:

https://www.forum.exscn.net/threads/jon-atack-scientology-expert.50054/
 
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Glenda

Crusader
From the corporate Scientology operated web site, 'Scientology Myths':

"Scientologists find it very offensive when people call Scientology a cult. The word 'cult' is now the most hateful thing you can call a religion. It's used as a slur. It's used by bigots. Not just against Scientology, but against many new minority religions. These are the actions of 'hate'."
sea_org.jpg

Absolutely. Corporate scientology took me to task on being a participant in a documentary "Inside New Zealand: How to Spot a Cult". There was lots of legal letterhead thrown around. They also sent in a four-person team to "educate" the documentary makers. Apparently they all sat round a really big boardroom table and OSA proceeded with a two+ hour (dead-agenting) presentation to the doco makers. The doco-makers tell a very funny story about that meeting which I won't share here.

OSA was determined to NOT have ex-scientologist participants in a doco with the word "cult" in it. They threw loads of toys out of their cot to try to get their own way.

They didn't get their own way. The doco makers and I did.
 

Bill

Gold Meritorious Patron
I never read on this board people saying "I"ve been or we've been brainwashed"

There were threads, from Veda (if memory serves) about brainwashing techniques and discussions about how it could have been or not implemented in some pieces of tech (processes or training) Some agreed there was manipulation techniques but most disagree they were either brainwashed or subjected to hypnosis.

There are as many shades of opinions regarding these topics as there are people discussing it.
I was never RPF'd but from people's description, I think the RPF just might qualify as brainwashing. You've got starvation diet, heavy manual labor, degradation and heavy indoctrination every night. Seems to be modeled after the Chinese/NK "reeducation camps". i.e. "brainwashing"

But normal Scientology training/auditing? Nope.
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
The link is to another post I wrote on ESMB. You won't get herpes by clicking on it, I swear.

Are you kidding me with your second request of me? You want me to link to one ESMB thread where Scientology used brainwashing on its adherents?

OK

Took me less than 5 seconds to find one:

https://www.forum.exscn.net/threads/jon-atack-scientology-expert.50054/
Well, it took you 28 minutes to reply ... but I asked for posts that were not based on the hypnotism threads. I should have said not Mockingbirds threads though (sorry) because that is what I suppose I meant.

Could you try again please?
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
@FreeBeingMe said:


Speaking for myself, I care about people who are newly out of Scientology too.

You say that you care about them finding "coherence and insight to begin onion peeling their way out of $cientology."

I used to believe as you do about Scientology being a "brainwashing cult". But since then I've read dozens scientific studies and dozens of court cases which have thoroughly debunked the idea of "brainwashing cults".

And I have come to realize that when an Ex adopts the idea that he was "brainwashed" in Scientology and he uses that re-interpret his experiences in Scientology, and who he was as a Scientologist - it does him damage. It sets him back years in his cultural readjustment back into the mainstream.

I have written a very detailed post about the ways that adopting the anticult movement belief system is harmful to Ex Members.

So, from my viewpoint, your call for coherence is a call for uniformity of belief, for a kind of '100% standard' anticult movement belief system to be displayed here with no squirreling.

I believe that newbies coming onto ESMB need MANY different beliefs, not another "uniformity of belief - conformity of thought" environment. They need to see LOTS of ideas and a vigorous, informed, & intelligent discussion of all these points of view.

Newbies to ESMB should be able to pick from your ideas, my ideas, He-man's ideas and Veda's ideas. Everyone's ideas.

I believe THAT is an environment that is best for a person coming out of a 'cult' environment and I believe that is the environment that is best for newbies on ESMB.

Can you tell me why I am wrong about this?

Could you please post the article above here instead of sending people to your blog? That way you may get some discussion happening.
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
I
I was never RPF'd but from people's description, I think the RPF just might qualify as brainwashing. You've got starvation diet, heavy manual labor, degradation and heavy indoctrination every night. Seems to be modeled after the Chinese/NK "reeducation camps". i.e. "brainwashing"

But normal Scientology training/auditing? Nope.
Yes Bill,
I too brought the RPF and also the introspection rd as people are coerced into admitting their crime justifying their mental breakdown, and also sec checking.." when did you kill your mother""
Some call it brainwashing , other abuses.

But never people said, as a general statement, that they were brainwashed. (Implying Scientology as a whole) There are a vast array of techniques, processes, abuses and manipulations. The ability to make distinction about it is enlightening and informative. But, in the event one uses this topic to prove a mainstream non-sense belief it would be false and fallacious.
 
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Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
You know what's better than all this?

Just try to find a scientific study that validates brainwashing.

Report back.

We'll wait.
 
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