Ruminations

[Lulu Belle]

I debated for a while as to whether or not I wanted to post anything else on this board. I finally decided I would get this off my chest.

A few kind of fragmented thoughts I want to express here.


I don’t remember everything about Mike Rinder’s history on staff. What I can piece together from what I recall and what others who were there have said is this:

The GO still existed when I got into the SO in 1982, but it was on its last legs. When I was on the RPF in 1984 it had just been officially disbanded. A ton of GO people were on the RPF with me. They were put there because the GO was now a terrible place filled with terrible people and they all needed to be punished. As I said in another post, Rinder was on the RPF with me, too. Ex-GO plus David Mayo followers plus everyone else Miscavige was mad at made for a big RPF.

The CMO took over the functions of the GO. That was when Mike Sutter was running it (Mid 80s). It had a different name at first. (Special Unit? Does that sound familiar?) Then it became OSA. The CO in the late 80s was Kurt Weiland. To my knowledge, both of these people came from CMO Int.

At some point Mike Rinder became CO OSA Int. My best guess is early 90s. He came from somewhere in the CMO, too. Mick Wenlock said he had been VA’s communicator in the 80s, so it may be that he wound up in OSA from that post. He bounced back and forth from the CO OSA post, to D/CO OSA post to WDC OSA (that’s CMO Int) to LRH PRO Int (head of RPR), to the RPF. And then back again. With some missions thrown in. (Now that I think of it, he was on a mission into AOLA at some point while I was there.)

I don’t know how many years Mike Rinder actually ran OSA, but I can tell you that, number one, it was not 22 years and number two, he got his orders from RTC. OSA Int is just an execution arm for RTC, which is of course just an execution arm for DM. OSA got its orders from RTC (IG Ethics RTC to be exact, who was Mark Rathbun). RTC took orders from DM. Nothing got done by OSA which wasn’t essentially a DM order.

One thing to keep in mind is that juicy little LRH datum that “stats are internally caused”. Every time OSA had a big loss (which, as you can imagine, was a LOT) the inference was that it was the fault of the staff. So, as a result, they’d get an ethics mission followed by a production mission and heads would roll. Every. Single. Time. The CO was the first head that would get lopped off. No one lasted on the CO OSA Int post for long.


There are a lot of upper level positions where a lot of terrible things were done to others. Some of you may remember my post about Bitty Miscavige. Lots I could say about her. Mariette Lindsteen, who was in RTC before she left the Sea Org, is another personal fave of mine. Both of these people are now out. Mariette lives in Sweden and writes books about cults. Bitty lives in California near or with her daughter who wrote a book about being DM’s niece. In my eyes, they did as much or more damage as Mike Rinder ever did. But no one is putting them on trial here.

As I said in another post, we all have our “items”. This list is a whole lot longer than these few people if you ask everyone theirs.


Some of us were on posts where we could do minimal direct damage to others. This is a combination of the level you were on and the position you held. I was on a post like that. Emma, who was an auditor, was on a post like that. (Unless you consider that an auditor can write “actionable KRs” which will from that point on cause untold misery for pcs. Someone out there probably hates her.)

Did I not have a post where I fairgamed people and destroyed their lives because I was somehow on a moral higher ground? Because I was incapable of inflicting that kind of damage to another person?

Well, no. The truth is, I wasn’t considered to be qual’d for OSA because of my pre-Scientology history. I wasn’t qual’d for Int, or for HCO, because of the same. So, I stayed in my little place in my service org until I finally came to my senses and blew.

Now I can safely say that I didn’t do terrible things like Mike Rinder did or like Marty did or Bitty did or like whoever did. But, if I was to have been given the jobs they had, would I have done the same things they did?

Yup. And anyone else I knew on staff would have, too. And those who say they wouldn’t either have terrible memories or are deluding themselves.

Because those were the rules and you followed them unquestioningly. What you wound up doing was totally a function of the job you wound up holding in the org you wound up holding it in. And, to a very great degree, at least in the Sea Org, what job you wound up holding and the place you wound up holding it in had little or nothing to do with what you wanted to do. And certainly what you did while you were in that position had nothing to do with what you wanted to do.

Those of us who lived it who have any kind of personal honesty know this. We may still harbor ill will to those who fucked us over or fucked over someone we knew or cared about. But even so, we get it. Those were the rules, and we followed them.


I’m not totally sure about what I want to say here. Except...the purpose of ESMB was supposed to be “Meet other exes. Share your experiences. Reunite with old friends.”

Not to run some group sec check on other exes who got put in the unfortunate position of doing damage to others when they were in.

But, that's just my opinion.

I guess that’s all I have to say.

 

[PirateAndBum]

Thanks for that Lulu

 

[ILove2Lurk]

. . .
Damn fine post!

 

[Type4_PTS]

I debated for a while as to whether or not I wanted to post anything else on this board. I finally decided I would get this off my chest.

A few kind of fragmented thoughts I want to express here.


I don’t remember everything about Mike Rinder’s history on staff. What I can piece together from what I recall and what others who were there have said is this:

The GO still existed when I got into the SO in 1982, but it was on its last legs. When I was on the RPF in 1984 it had just been officially disbanded. A ton of GO people were on the RPF with me. They were put there because the GO was now a terrible place filled with terrible people and they all needed to be punished. As I said in another post, Rinder was on the RPF with me, too. Ex-GO plus David Mayo followers plus everyone else Miscavige was mad at made for a big RPF.

The CMO took over the functions of the GO. That was when Mike Sutter was running the GO. (Mid 80s.) It had a different name at first (Special Unit? Does that sound familiar?) Then it became OSA. The CO in the late 80s was Kurt Weiland. To my knowledge, both of these people came from CMO Int.

At some point Mike Rinder became CO OSA Int. My best guess is early 90s. He came from somewhere in the CMO, too. Mick Wenlock said he had been VA’s communicator in the 80s, so it may be that he wound up in OSA from that post. He bounced back and forth from the CO OSA post, to D/CO OSA post to WDC OSA (that’s CMO Int) to LRH PRO Int (head of RPR), to the RPF. And then back again. With some missions thrown in. (Now that I think of it, he was on a mission into AOLA at some point while I was there.)

I don’t know how many years Mike Rinder actually ran OSA, but I can tell you that , number one, it was not 22 years and number two, he got his orders from RTC. OSA Int is just an execution arm for RTC, which is of course just an execution arm for DM. OSA got its orders from RTC (IG Ethics RTC to be exact, who was Mark Rathbun). RTC took orders from DM. Nothing got done by OSA which wasn’t essentially a DM order.

One thing to keep in mind is that juicy little LRH datum that “stats are internally caused”. Every time OSA had a big loss (which, as you can imagine, was a LOT) the inference was that it was the fault of the staff. So, as a result, they’d get an ethics mission followed by a production mission and heads would roll. Every. Single. Time. The CO was the first head that would roll. No one lasted on the CO OSA Int post for long.


There are a lot of upper level positions where a lot of terrible things were done to others. Some of you may remember my post about Bitty Miscavige. Lots I could say about her. Mariette Lindsteen, who was in RTC before she left the Sea Org, is another personal fave of mine. Both of these people are now out. Mariette lives in Sweden and writes books about cults. Bitty lives in California near or with her daughter who wrote a book about being DM’s niece. In my eyes, they did as much or more damage as Mike Rinder ever did. But no one is putting them on trial here.

As I said in another post, we all have our “items”. This list is a whole lot longer than these few people if you ask everyone theirs.


Some of us were on posts where we could do minimal direct damage to others. This is a combination of the level you were on and the position you held. I was on a post like that. Emma, who was an auditor, was on a post like that. (Unless you consider that an auditor can write “actionable KRs” which will from that point on cause untold misery for pcs. Someone out there probably hates her.)

Did I not have a post where I fairgamed people and destroyed their lives because I was somehow on a moral higher ground? Because I was incapable of inflicting that kind of damage to another person?

Well, no. The truth is, I wasn’t considered to be qual’d for OSA because of my pre-Scientology history. I wasn’t qual’d for Int, or for HCO, because of the same. So, I stayed in my little place in my service org until I finally came to my senses and blew.

Now I can safely say that I didn’t do terrible things like Mike Rinder did or like Marty did or Bitty did or like whoever did. But, if I was to have been given the jobs they had, would I have done the same things they did?

Yup. And anyone else I knew on staff would have, too. And those who say they wouldn’t either have terrible memories or are deluding themselves.

Because those were the rules and you followed them unquestioningly. What you wound up doing was totally a function of the job you wound up holding in the org you wound up holding it in. And, to a very great degree, at least in the Sea Org, what job you wound up holding and the place you wound up holding it in had little or nothing to do with what you wanted to do. And certainly what you did while you were in that position had nothing to do with what you wanted to do.

Those of us who lived it who have any kind of personal honesty know this. We may still harbor ill will to those who fucked us over or fucked over someone we knew or cared about. But even so, we get it. Those were the rules, and we followed them.


I’m not totally sure about what I want to say here. Except...the purpose of ESMB was supposed to be “Meet other exes. Share your experiences. Reunite with old friends.”

Not to run some group sec check on other exes who got put in the unfortunate position of doing damage to others when they were in.

But, that's just my opinion.

I guess that’s all I have to say.

Great post. Thank-you!

When one attempts to follow Hubbard's "Code of Honor" which includes "Never fear to hurt another in a just cause", and one is engaged in the purpose of salvaging this sector of the universe and our eternity, it is almost always the "greatest good" to harm another when the failure to do so will impede Scientology, even if you're harming your own family or lifelong friends.

Per Scientology "ethics", breaking the law is the most ethical option when that's necessary to neutralize the perceived enemies of Scientology.

Like you and Emma, I also was not on a post which required directly harming other individuals. But I would have had zero sympathy for any of the perceived enemies who were harmed. I was briefed by OSA when I was Boston Org staff about how people like Paulette Cooper and attorney Michael Flynn were some of the most evil beings in the universe, and I believed it. Scientology breeds fanaticism, and I was well on my way.
Genuinely good people who get ensnared in the Scientology mindfuck can do evil things while truly believing that it's the greatest good.
Not much different than suicide bombers who believe they're doing a great thing and will be rewarded with 72 virgins.

 

[JustSheila]

Ditto for me. Thanks for that, Lulu.

Also for the history clarification.

 

[Mick Wenlock]

When you post, you really post!! Well said Lulu. well said indeed

 

[Lurker5]

Wow. Outstanding.

 

[Alanzo]

"For most of the time between 1982 and 2007 I was a senior official in the Church of Scientology International (CSI), the so-called mother church of Scientology. I was on the Board of Directors of CSI from its inception in 1982 until I left in 2007.'

"During the majority of the time between 1982 and 2007 I was the most senior official within CSI responsible for “external affairs”, meaning government and media relations, investigations and intelligence operations, as well as all litigation and contract matters. This function is performed by the Office of Special Affairs (“OSA”) and I was the head of OSA for most of this time."

- Mike Rinder Texas Declaration

https://www.mikerindersblog.org/mike-rinder-texas-declaration/

 

[JustSheila]

This song is for Alanzo:

Na Na Na Na Na Na Na Na Na Na ....
Can't stand your nagging any more
Na Na Na Na Na Na Na Na Na Na ....
Can't stand your nagging any more
Hey boy now just listen to me
Stop playing with me, you're not funny
Completely fed up with your bore
Can't stand your nagging any more
Na, na, na, na, na, na, na....
Can't stand you're nagging anymore
Na, na, na, na, na, na, na...
Can't stand your nagging anymore

 

[Alanzo]

17. “The Office of Special Affairs (OSA) is the legal, public relations, and intelligence network of CSI. One or more network representatives are employed by every Scientology organization across the world. Each of them is operated and managed by OSA International (OSA INT) which is housed within CSI. Although OSA is formally answerable to CSI’s management, from OSA’s inception in the early 1980s, until my departure in December 2004, the formal management structure was a sham. OSA was carefully micromanaged by David Miscavige. he exercised his control through me, Inspector General of RTC, and Mike Rinder, Commanding Officer of OSA International.

18. “Between 1982 and 2004, it was my job to act as a go-between for Miscavige and OSA. The manner in which we shielded Miscavige was elaborate. Much of Miscavige’s control of OSA was done “off the record.” Every evening I would receive an intelligence briefing in writing from OSA. The briefing was usually several pages summarizing reports from private investigators and Scientologists serving as undercover spies watching and interacting with Scientology critics. The written briefing, contrary to established corporate policy, had no routing information on it. That is, the daily briefing had no indication who wrote the report or who it was directed to. If a report ever got out of the Church, it could not, on its face, be used to incriminate any of its author or recipients.

19. “After I read the report each day, I was instructed by Miscavige to put it into a fresh envelope with no routing information on it. I then personally carried the envelope into Miscavige’s office and set it on his desk. I was the only person in Scientology, aside from his wife and secretary, ever authorized such access to his desk. When Mr. Miscavige read the reports, he would enter my office with the report in hand. He would say ‘beat it’ to my secretary or anyone else who happened to be in my office. Once any visitors had left, Mr. Miscavige would discuss the contents of the report. Often, he would instruct me to order OSA to direct an operative or private investigator to find out something to do concerning the target of infiltration or investigation. On other occasions, Mr. Miscavige would joke about what was reported about a particular target, or rant about the target’s activity. When Miscavige was done discussing the daily OSA briefing with me, he would throw the report on my desk. That was my cue to pick it up and shred it after he left the office and before anyone was permitted to return to my office.

20. “For 22 years, my schedule was to wake up at least an hour before David Miscavige’s scheduled wake up time so that I could collect all important information on any matter of concern to him being handled by the OSA network. Every morning, I was required to brief Miscavige verbally on any major developments on matters handled by the OSA network around the world or matters concerning security. My briefing to him would begin with major problems which he insisted he know about. My briefing included reports about handling the media stories, investigations, legal cases, security breaches, and potential security situations. That briefing would last anywhere from a few minutes on a quiet day with no major developments, to all day when something was afoot that riveted Miscavige’s attention. Miscavige would issue orders to OSA that I had to accurately note on paper.

21. “After the conference with Miscavige, there were a number of options available for issuing his orders, depending on their scope and the level of security required. Most often, I would call Mike Rinder, into my office and I would brief him verbally on Miscavige’s directives. Mr. Rinder would then return to his own office and type up the orders as written directives to OSA. Those directives would be worded as if the orders were originated by him, with no reference to me or RTC, and especially not to Mr. Miscavige. On many occasions, Mr. Miscavige would require Mr. Rinder’s presence during briefings in which he wanted more detail than usual, or wanted to issue more detailed orders than usual. In such cases, it would be my responsibility to follow up to verify that Mr. Rinder relayed Mr. Miscavige’s orders to OSA as Rinder’s own orders.

22. “Mr. Rinder and I were ordered by Mr. Miscavige to keep secret virtually all of our communications, and to specifically keep them secret from any other managers or staff with CSI and RTC. All other CSI managers had little to no knowledge of any matters affecting Scientology from the world outside of the Church. Except for OSA staff, Sea Org members have little contact with the media or the world outside of their corporate duties.

- Marty Rathbun Affidavit

http://tonyortega.org/2013/09/05/ma...y-leader-david-miscavige-lied-to-texas-court/

 

[JustSheila]

a Na Na Na Na Na Na Na Na Na ...
Can't stand your nagging any more
Na Na Na Na Na Na Na Na Na Na ...
Can't stand your nagging any more
Hey boy now just listen to me
Stop playing with me, you're not funny
Completely fed up with your bore
Can't stand your nagging any more

 

[Dulloldfart]

Alanzo, do you do this in real life? Do you go to some meeting, totally disrupt it, keep ranting over everyone protesting or even -- heaven forbid -- trying to engage you in dialogue, then get dragged out by security kicking and screaming about how wrong everyone is? I bet you don't.

Do the decent thing for once. Just go away.

Paul

 

[Alanzo]

Lulu wrote:

Now I can safely say that I didn’t do terrible things like Mike Rinder did or like Marty did or Bitty did or like whoever did. But, if I was to have been given the jobs they had, would I have done the same things they did?

Yup.

Can different people answer this in different ways to your answer?

Is that allowed?

And anyone else I knew on staff would have, too. And those who say they wouldn’t either have terrible memories or are deluding themselves.

Because those were the rules and you followed them unquestioningly. ...

Those of us who lived it who have any kind of personal honesty know this. We may still harbor ill will to those who fucked us over or fucked over someone we knew or cared about. But even so, we get it. Those were the rules, and we followed them.

This is the social construction of the anti-Scientology nightmare that we are all just supposed to swallow about ourselves as Exes. No one even questions this. As an Anti-Scientologist, I swallowed this about myself for many years. And then I looked at it with a little bit of healthy skepticism and found that I was telling myself very destructive lies.

Sea Org members, on the whole, were the most fanatical and abusive Scientologists. All fanaticism and abuse in Scientology came from them.

I was never a Sea Org member. In fact, as mission staff and Scientology public, I was frequently fighting and resisting Sea Org fanaticism and abuse, and trying to protect other Scientologists from them, as well.

As a mission ED, I wrote high crime reports on David Miscavige and every member of Exec Strata at the time, and FEDEXED them each their own copies.

I did one OSA project and was so disgusted by them that I never did a second one.

So no - sorry. I'm going to call this out.

Scientology was a test of your character. Some Scientologists passed that test, and some failed.

You shouldn't make other Exes guilty for your own moral failings.

 

[TheOriginalBigBlue]

A very lovely post Lulu.

As I was reading this I tried to recall if I have ever seen a similar timeline specifically issued by Mike and if he has I don't think I have seen it. But my understanding is he has cooperated with the FBI and they have a very long history of reverse engineering mob org boards so I have to believe that they covered this with Mike extensively. If so, I also have to believe that they would request that he not discuss it in public since it was now part of their investigation(s).

People might notice how rarely I mention other Scientologists that I worked with by name. One reason for this is I consider most of them were victims of circumstance. They made a terrible mistake and most are now off staff or exes. If they want to start their lives over and leave the toxic world of Scientology behind and out of their families completely I have to ask myself if I want to be the one to drag them back into it. Maybe their children were too young or born later to know anything about it. Do I want them to learn about it from me?

How information gets used on the internet is extremely enduring and unpredictable. I look up people who have done Scientology on the internet and it is amazing how much information is out there. On one hand it helps identify people who are actively pushing a Scientology agenda but on the other it could cost someone a job or relationship so the importance of respecting the privacy of people can't be overstated.

There have been very reasoned discussions of Mike's conflict of interest on the forum without the need for convening the equivalent of a Committee of Evidence on him in his absence. However, if someone wanted to crucify him on the internet then they can use these reasons for withholding information against him. Maybe they have thought through all the angles and understand that there might be good reasons why he can't defend himself or maybe they are clueless or just don't care. In either case I think it is the perfect setup for perpetual conflict and circular debate if that is really what you want.

I think Mike was second generation. There are also a lot of exes who held more senior position and have as much if not more incriminating information and some of them have been doing what they can behind the scenes. Some of these people were not even second generation and don't have that as an excuse. Should they all be held up to the same critical standards? Mike was the Scientology spokesperson and put himself on camera so he is a public figure. As far as I can tell that is the only significant difference for why he is targeted more than others. So are his accusers more interested in him because of what he knows and what he has done or because if they did the same thing to less public people they could be sued for libel?

Anyone who goes deep enough into Scientology will either contribute to or witness some kind of abuse. Even public Scientologists who didn't witness crush regging or the coercion of families still gave money, time and volunteering to an abusive criminal enterprise and they probably disseminated, sold books and proselytized for them. I think some people really need Hubbard and pre-Miscavige Scientology to be pure and sacrosanct lest their own consciences be tainted. If they can put all this on post-Hubbard era people then they get to grant themselves some kind of moral pass to put other people on trial not just for crimes but for what they perceive as corrupting their "religion".

If you are or ever have been a Scientologist then to that degree you have contributed to something very ugly with lots of shades or grey. We were all in the mob whether we knew it or not.

 

[Veda]

-snip-

This is the social construction of the anti-Scientology nightmare that we are all just supposed to swallow about ourselves as Exes. No one even questions this. As an Anti-Scientologist, I swallowed this about myself for many years.

Your classification of "Anti-Scientologist" is a "social construct" devised by L. Ron Hubbard, continued by David Miscavige, and rationalized by corrupt cult apologists.

And then I looked at it with a little bit of healthy skepticism and found that I was telling myself very destructive lies.

Sea Org members, on the whole, were the most fanatical and abusive Scientologists. All fanaticism and abuse in Scientology came from them.

Scientology Org "hard sell" sales people, and Ethics Officers, are not part of the Sea Org.

I was never a Sea Org member. In fact, as mission staff and Scientology public, I was constantly fighting and resisting Sea Org fanaticism and abuse.

Looks like you joined in 1983 during the publishing and wide distribution of 'Story of a Squirrel' condemning the former Senior C/S David Mayo. Did you read it?

As a mission ED, I wrote high crime reports on David Miscavige and every member of Exec Strata at the time, and FEDEXED them each their own copies.

What year was that? You didn't leave till 1999.

I did one OSA project and was so disgusted by them I never did a second one.

So no - sorry. I'm going to call this out.

Scientology was a test of your character. Some Scientologists passed that test, and some failed.

You're very special.

 

[JustSheila]

As a mission ED, I wrote high crime reports on David Miscavige and every member of Exec Strata at the time, and FEDEXED them each their own copies.

Right. Sent to where, the general Flag address? Oooh! You bought a Fed ex envelope and wrote a report and made a lot of copies!

Of course, you've never answered a single question anyone asks about YOUR crimes.

 

[Dotey OT]

What is happening is exactly the product he wants.

 

[lotus]

Let me Guess

Lulu belle Will soon be in the line of fire
( might already been)?

Because she wrote such an enlightened and informative post..but not the least, she was there, she knew and she can make the record straight.

But what I like the most is her credibility and how she is reliable with facts..no one can attack Lulu belle's sayings.

That is a nice product of the DA run lately on this board..we have great posters and old timers who come and provide us with the true facts...this is seen in many threads with Big Blue for example.

I am very proud of most of people here who remain people we can trust and rely upon regarding their integrity..they speak their own mind , actually, in these times as it never happened before. Also, they are ovely sheeps and a funny flock.

A special thanks to Lulu Belle for she spoke her mind in such a well wrapped post.​

IMO, anyone who reads the board can actually get what is happening...

 

[TheOriginalBigBlue]

What is happening is exactly the product he wants.

If you mean trying to turn Lulu's clarifying OP into another Alanzo "Let's Roast Mike" thread then I have to agree.

But I don't think it's going the way he wants. Mission Executive Directors and staff and public might want to think they are innocent but their success as feeders for Scientology Corporate made all of this possible. They might salve their consciences by clinging to a romanticized version of Scientology before the 82 Mission Holders Conference or some such but Scientology and Hubbard were dark side going back to Hubbard's pre-Dianetics days and his dalliance with Jack Parsons et al. Trying to play the innocent card here only demonstrates one's deliberate ignorance and that can be another kind of fanaticism. It's convenient to shift the blame onto the Sea Org but it should be clear that Hubbard always wanted to take things in that direction. He wanted to create his own empire with it's own palace guard but he still needed the peasantry to put up the crops. It's like the Scientology peasant class are trying to say they never knew about the over-taxation and the oubliettes under the old king. All that doesn't matter. It all started under the new king and there was nothing they could do about it.

How much money did those missions extract from people and send up lines? How many mission public became public for Sea Org organizations? How many mission public and staff became Sea Org members? I was one of them. If the Sea Org was so bad then why did so many mission public and staff put up with the abuse? I think it's the same reason so many Sea Org members put up with the abuse. It was a manipulative coercive program from start to finish and top to bottom. Just because you were one of the peasants that was too afraid or uncommitted to work in the castle doesn't make you innocent.

 

[Enthetan]

The CMO took over the functions of the GO. That was when Mike Sutter was running the GO. (Mid 80s.) It had a different name at first. (Special Unit? Does that sound familiar?) Then it became OSA. The CO in the late 80s was Kurt Weiland. To my knowledge, both of these people came from CMO Int.

Special Unit was the CMO unit directly working with LRH, which I believe was directly managed by Miscavige.