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The_Fixer

Class Clown
I was never in any of "those mentioned positions", which I understand to be the Guardian Office or the Office of Special Affairs.

The closest I came to being posted in the GO was circa late 1976 when I was recruited by two USGO Finance Bureau staff -- Cindy Blakeslee and Steve Littler -- to be posted in the Finance Bureau World Wide under then Deputy Guardian Finance WW, Herbie Parkhouse. I was appointed by Guardian Personnel Order 2888. I never reported because I knew that I would have never been able to afford to visit my mother and siblings in Texas. At least, it seemed very unlikely that I would have been able to pay for a round trip ticket from England to Texas and back on SO pay.

I'm not sure what you are referring to by your use of the word "that" in your second question: "would your ethical code have presented itself and got you excluded from that in the first place?" Does "that" refer to being posted in the GO or the OSA? If this is what you mean, then let me answer this way: In life, we all have choices regarding what we do and don't do. My ethical code prevents me from running Fair Game on fellow members of the human race. Before, during, and after my involvement in Scientology and the Sea Org -- in other words, all of my life -- I have always been guided by the Golden Rule.
Your interpretation was right.
Thanks for the reply.
Sometimes getting caught up in cult thinking tends to cloud people's sense of good judgement.
Takes a strong person to resist it and stick to their codes.
I know I never felt overly comfortable with some people's attitudes and behaviors there.
It was in some ways like the bikie gangs I used to associate with before I got into scn. It was a part of my decision to leave, even though I wasn't very aware of it at the time on a conscious level.
 
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uniquemand

Unbeliever
I debated for a while as to whether or not I wanted to post anything else on this board. I finally decided I would get this off my chest.

A few kind of fragmented thoughts I want to express here.


I don’t remember everything about Mike Rinder’s history on staff. What I can piece together from what I recall and what others who were there have said is this:

The GO still existed when I got into the SO in 1982, but it was on its last legs. When I was on the RPF in 1984 it had just been officially disbanded. A ton of GO people were on the RPF with me. They were put there because the GO was now a terrible place filled with terrible people and they all needed to be punished. As I said in another post, Rinder was on the RPF with me, too. Ex-GO plus David Mayo followers plus everyone else Miscavige was mad at made for a big RPF.

The CMO took over the functions of the GO. That was when Mike Sutter was running it (Mid 80s). It had a different name at first. (Special Unit? Does that sound familiar?) Then it became OSA. The CO in the late 80s was Kurt Weiland. To my knowledge, both of these people came from CMO Int.

At some point Mike Rinder became CO OSA Int. My best guess is early 90s. He came from somewhere in the CMO, too. Mick Wenlock said he had been VA’s communicator in the 80s, so it may be that he wound up in OSA from that post. He bounced back and forth from the CO OSA post, to D/CO OSA post to WDC OSA (that’s CMO Int) to LRH PRO Int (head of RPR), to the RPF. And then back again. With some missions thrown in. (Now that I think of it, he was on a mission into AOLA at some point while I was there.)

I don’t know how many years Mike Rinder actually ran OSA, but I can tell you that, number one, it was not 22 years and number two, he got his orders from RTC. OSA Int is just an execution arm for RTC, which is of course just an execution arm for DM. OSA got its orders from RTC (IG Ethics RTC to be exact, who was Mark Rathbun). RTC took orders from DM. Nothing got done by OSA which wasn’t essentially a DM order.

One thing to keep in mind is that juicy little LRH datum that “stats are internally caused”. Every time OSA had a big loss (which, as you can imagine, was a LOT) the inference was that it was the fault of the staff. So, as a result, they’d get an ethics mission followed by a production mission and heads would roll. Every. Single. Time. The CO was the first head that would get lopped off. No one lasted on the CO OSA Int post for long.


There are a lot of upper level positions where a lot of terrible things were done to others. Some of you may remember my post about Bitty Miscavige. Lots I could say about her. Mariette Lindsteen, who was in RTC before she left the Sea Org, is another personal fave of mine. Both of these people are now out. Mariette lives in Sweden and writes books about cults. Bitty lives in California near or with her daughter who wrote a book about being DM’s niece. In my eyes, they did as much or more damage as Mike Rinder ever did. But no one is putting them on trial here.

As I said in another post, we all have our “items”. This list is a whole lot longer than these few people if you ask everyone theirs.


Some of us were on posts where we could do minimal direct damage to others. This is a combination of the level you were on and the position you held. I was on a post like that. Emma, who was an auditor, was on a post like that. (Unless you consider that an auditor can write “actionable KRs” which will from that point on cause untold misery for pcs. Someone out there probably hates her.)

Did I not have a post where I fairgamed people and destroyed their lives because I was somehow on a moral higher ground? Because I was incapable of inflicting that kind of damage to another person?

Well, no. The truth is, I wasn’t considered to be qual’d for OSA because of my pre-Scientology history. I wasn’t qual’d for Int, or for HCO, because of the same. So, I stayed in my little place in my service org until I finally came to my senses and blew.

Now I can safely say that I didn’t do terrible things like Mike Rinder did or like Marty did or Bitty did or like whoever did. But, if I was to have been given the jobs they had, would I have done the same things they did?

Yup. And anyone else I knew on staff would have, too. And those who say they wouldn’t either have terrible memories or are deluding themselves.

Because those were the rules and you followed them unquestioningly. What you wound up doing was totally a function of the job you wound up holding in the org you wound up holding it in. And, to a very great degree, at least in the Sea Org, what job you wound up holding and the place you wound up holding it in had little or nothing to do with what you wanted to do. And certainly what you did while you were in that position had nothing to do with what you wanted to do.

Those of us who lived it who have any kind of personal honesty know this. We may still harbor ill will to those who fucked us over or fucked over someone we knew or cared about. But even so, we get it. Those were the rules, and we followed them.


I’m not totally sure about what I want to say here. Except...the purpose of ESMB was supposed to be “Meet other exes. Share your experiences. Reunite with old friends.”

Not to run some group sec check on other exes who got put in the unfortunate position of doing damage to others when they were in.

But, that's just my opinion.

I guess that’s all I have to say.
I'm late to the conversation. But I do think many people simply would not do the things that Rinder and other OSA personnel did. I know I wouldn't. This is not because I'm morally superior! It's because I never would have been given the post: I was almost always in lower conditions, even when my stats were in affluence or power. I never could shake the truth, which was that I was INVESTIGATING scientology. I was not convinced of the rightness of Hubbard or the Church, and so I questioned everything that I was told to do that violated my previous understanding. I think the only way you get those posts is by either being a "True Believer", or by being a cynical manipulator.
 

Warrior

Patron with Honors
I'm late to the conversation. But I do think many people simply would not do the things that Rinder and other OSA personnel did. I know I wouldn't. This is not because I'm morally superior! It's because I never would have been given the post: I was almost always in lower conditions, even when my stats were in affluence or power. I never could shake the truth, which was that I was INVESTIGATING scientology. I was not convinced of the rightness of Hubbard or the Church, and so I questioned everything that I was told to do that violated my previous understanding. I think the only way you get those posts is by either being a "True Believer", or by being a cynical manipulator.
Were you ever told you were "PTS Type H"?
 

Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron
Hate to break it to you, mate, but science marches on.

I don't want to sound cruel because I know how important our excuses are, but the excuses for your own moral choices are drying up as the science continues to advance.

Will the Stanford Prison Experiment Ever Die?
The most famous psychology study in history has once again been debunked

"...As I discovered over two years of research and interviews with former participants, the true story of what happened during that August week in 1971 was very different. In June 2018, I published an article for Medium making a radical claim: The most famous psychology experiment of all time was a sham. To my surprise, the exposé made headlines all around the world, from Singapore to Denmark. Zimbardo decried this wave of criticism as unfounded attacks on his integrity. In response, more than 100 research psychologists around the world signed an open letter calling for open criticism as an essential part of the scientific process...."

It's a fascinating article. The sooner an Ex realizes that "brainwashing' is just an excuse that you tell yourself - and each other - for your own moral failures, the better off you are going to be. Dumping these excuses for your own behavior and decision-making can illuminate a very valuable side to yourself - where your true strengths and weaknesses are revealed.

The beginning of that process can be extremely uncomfortable - but there is a heap of treasure for you at the end.

Again, I realize that I sound cruel. But someone has to insert these ideas into this pity party and break this shit up. You are harming each other by continually telling each other these comfortable lies.

Don't agree at all. The whole way the CofS is set up is so as to discourage critical thought, to not allow any independent examination of the claims made or the concepts used in the subject. Got any doubts about whether there were ever any Clears, all illness is due to PTSness, or whether the reason for yawning in session is a misunderstood word? Best keep them to yourself or you'll spend most of the next week looking up words in the Tech dictionary and word clearing them.

That is not a normal experience for most people, which is why those of us who have had that experience (and I got off very lightly compared to most people here because I wasn't in very long and was never on staff) find it necessary to come together and discuss what they saw and experienced in order to sift through it all and try to make some sense of all the insanity and chicanery.

Pity party my arse. There are people here who have lost contact with close members of their family because of their involvement with the CofS; others who have sacrificed the best years of their lives, where they might have had children, to the organisation. Others who have posted in the past have said they've sacrificed their best earning years to the CofS and will struggle in their old age because they were unable to put back money for a pension.

I was involved with Scn for about five years (mostly in the freezone), with occasional breaks for things like attending the meetings of an Australian spiritual teacher who was visiting London.

Some things worked for me and some things didn't. I don't regret my time in at all, but I accept I was very lucky in that the Church showed their arse early on in my time there so I wasn't tempted to get more deeply involved. I still think it's worth my while to warn people with no prior exposure to the CofS what it is like, as it is my contention that hardly anybody who did know the facts about it would want to get involved with it.

Whatever merits the Tech may have (and I think it has at least some value), the CofS is so toxic an organisation that I really cannot recommend anyone gets involved with it on any level at all, and there are better options available now than there were in the 1950s.
 
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Lulu Belle

Moonbat
At some point Mike Rinder became CO OSA Int. My best guess is early 90s. He came from somewhere in the CMO, too. Mick Wenlock said he had been VA’s communicator in the 80s, so it may be that he wound up in OSA from that post. He bounced back and forth from the CO OSA post, to D/CO OSA post to WDC OSA (that’s CMO Int) to LRH PRO Int (head of RPR), to the RPF. And then back again. With some missions thrown in. (Now that I think of it, he was on a mission into AOLA at some point while I was there.)


Quoting myself here.

This is regarding Rinder.

Rinder spoke at a lot of Int events in the 80s and 90s. If you had ever gone to those events during that time, you might remember him.

When he spoke at those events, it was either usually or always from the "hat" of LRH PRO Int. This, as I said in my original post, was the head of RPR. It's a CMO Int post, held from Int. Not an OSA or a legal job. He spent a lot of time on that job during this time period. (My best recollection is that he bopped back and forth between OSA and RPR mainly.)

If Rinder is to be held accountable for his crimes against humanity, his speaking at these events is the foremost thing he can be charged with.

It's ironic that he's on a TV show because as an Int speaker he had the most boring, droning voice you could ever imagine. The worst. I mean, it was painful. Even as good little Sea Org members, my girlfriend and I would always slip out and go to the ladies room or take a walk when he came on.


Watching paint dry was like seeing a Nascar race in comparison.

It was that bad. :no:
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
When he spoke at those events, it was either usually or always from the "hat" of LRH PRO Int. This, as I said in my original post, was the head of RPR. It's a CMO Int post, held from Int. Not an OSA or a legal job. He spent a lot of time on that job during this time period. (My best recollection is that he bopped back and forth between OSA and RPR mainly.)

If Rinder is to be held accountable for his crimes against humanity, his speaking at these events is the foremost thing he can be charged with.

It's ironic that he's on a TV show because as an Int speaker he had the most boring, droning voice you could ever imagine. The worst. I mean, it was painful. Even as good little Sea Org members, my girlfriend and I would always slip out and go to the ladies room or take a walk when he came on.


Watching paint dry was like seeing a Nascar race in comparison.

It was that bad. :no:
As of early 1980's, the chain of command was "LRH Pers PRO" reported to "PersComm" (LRH's personal communicator) who reported directly to LRH (with perhaps DM as a via in the later years).
 

Lulu Belle

Moonbat
As of early 1980's, the chain of command was "LRH Pers PRO" reported to "PersComm" (LRH's personal communicator) who reported directly to LRH (with perhaps DM as a via in the later years).

Yeah, I think you're right. It still would have been under the "CMO Int" umbrella, I'm pretty sure.

People in the higher echelons went from one stratosphere to the other. I think they were still considered "messengers" even if they were posted in HU or RTC or wherever, so it's still CMO Int.

I remember hearing, though, that if you were posted at ASI, you had to "resign" from the Sea Org because ASI was a "secular" org. Does anyone else remember that? Maybe Chuck Beatty can verify. He was ASI staff at one time.
 

Emma

Con te partirò
Administrator
Quoting myself here.

This is regarding Rinder.

Rinder spoke at a lot of Int events in the 80s and 90s. If you had ever gone to those events during that time, you might remember him.

When he spoke at those events, it was either usually or always from the "hat" of LRH PRO Int. This, as I said in my original post, was the head of RPR. It's a CMO Int post, held from Int. Not an OSA or a legal job. He spent a lot of time on that job during this time period. (My best recollection is that he bopped back and forth between OSA and RPR mainly.)

If Rinder is to be held accountable for his crimes against humanity, his speaking at these events is the foremost thing he can be charged with.

It's ironic that he's on a TV show because as an Int speaker he had the most boring, droning voice you could ever imagine. The worst. I mean, it was painful. Even as good little Sea Org members, my girlfriend and I would always slip out and go to the ladies room or take a walk when he came on.


Watching paint dry was like seeing a Nascar race in comparison.

It was that bad. :no:
Every event was an assault on the ears. From Jeff Pomerantz and his "Diiiianeeeetiiiics", to Dan Sherman's "gay as" rambling singsongy bullshit, to DM's over-scripted, tortured and strangled sentences, to Mike Rinder's coma inducing weird accent. Uugh. I preferred to do nanny duty.
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
When he spoke at those events, it was either usually or always from the "hat" of LRH PRO Int. This, as I said in my original post, was the head of RPR. It's a CMO Int post, held from Int. Not an OSA or a legal job. He spent a lot of time on that job during this time period. (My best recollection is that he bopped back and forth between OSA and RPR mainly.)

If Rinder is to be held accountable for his crimes against humanity, his speaking at these events is the foremost thing he can be charged with.
Why did Mike Rinder say this about his own career then?

"For most of the time between 1982 and 2007 I was a senior official in the Church of Scientology International (CSI), the so-called mother church of Scientology. I was on the Board of Directors of CSI from its inception in 1982 until I left in 2007.'

"During the majority of the time between 1982 and 2007 I was the most senior official within CSI responsible for “external affairs”, meaning government and media relations, investigations and intelligence operations, as well as all litigation and contract matters. This function is performed by the Office of Special Affairs (“OSA”) and I was the head of OSA for most of this time."
- Mike Rinder Texas Declaration

https://www.mikerindersblog.org/mike-rinder-texas-declaration/
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
I remember hearing, though, that if you were posted at ASI, you had to "resign" from the Sea Org because ASI was a "secular" org. Does anyone else remember that? Maybe Chuck Beatty can verify. He was ASI staff at one time.
Since DM was head of ASI, that would mean that he was, somehow, no longer SO, while effectively ordering SO around.

It was all a big mass of "acceptable truths" and "shore stories", designed to camouflage the money flows going from "religious" CoS to LRH's personal self.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
I remember hearing, though, that if you were posted at ASI, you had to "resign" from the Sea Org because ASI was a "secular" org. Does anyone else remember that? Maybe Chuck Beatty can verify. He was ASI staff at one time.
Definitely correct. ASI came over to ITO to study once a week in the early 90s and I got to chat a little with the more human ones while performing sup duties. It was very hush hush that they were there as there wasn't supposed to be that connection.

Paul
 

Warrior

Patron with Honors
Since DM was head of ASI, that would mean that he was, somehow, no longer SO, while effectively ordering SO around.

It was all a big mass of "acceptable truths" and "shore stories", designed to camouflage the money flows going from "religious" CoS to LRH's personal self.
Exactly.

And this also relates to why, when Lawrence Wollersheim tried to collect on the $3,000,000 judgement awarded to him, Scientology claimed that CoSoC had "no assets", and thus could not pay the judgement.

Lawrence then had to sue in order to prove that CSI, RTC, CST, etc. are alter egos of CoSoC.

He of course ultimately prevailed years later -- thanks to the Zolin tapes being entered into evidence -- causing Scientology to rush into the clerk's office with an $8,600,000 check to settle the case at the 11th hour.
 

Lulu Belle

Moonbat
Since DM was head of ASI, that would mean that he was, somehow, no longer SO, while effectively ordering SO around.

It was all a big mass of "acceptable truths" and "shore stories", designed to camouflage the money flows going from "religious" CoS to LRH's personal self.

Yes, that's absolutely true.

Stacy (Young) Brooks talked about this a lot in detail on ARS in the 90s.

I don't know if any stuff from that period is archived anywhere. It's a pity if it's all lost. Lot of valuable info from that time.
 
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