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It's time to get off the fence

lionheart

Gold Meritorious Patron
My question is then, do you see any merit or validity in LRH's way of conducting his research? If not, how do you explain the much better results when backtrack incidents are run?
lkwdblds

I see almost no validity in the way LRH "researched" - it seemed to be largely based upon strong assertion based upon very little research and then apparent confirmation of what was asserted. No testing appeared to be done to refine the assertion.

The scientific approach I was taught at school was one of hypothesis, testing, refining of hypothesis, re-testing, etc.

I think the laughter at the congress that you observed was probably laughter at the apparant paradox of what Ron says he observed. It was quite ironic and amusing.

From my extensive experience of giving Standard Danetic and New Era Dianetic auditing I observed the following:

New PCs often got the BD's and wide F/Ns when running a fairly early this lifetime incident. As they received more Dn auditing the needle and Tone Arm would tend to become less volatile until "past lives" were run when I would see the BDs and wide F/Ns that Ron predicted.

This appeared to validate Ron's assertion. But there is no "Double Blind" testing involved here where a control group would be audited without being given any expectation of past life contact.

One cannot discount the suggesitibility of PC's and Ron's quite open suggestions of the importance of running past lives. He was a strong charismatic confident-sounding individual, this comes over in his written works, so the power of suggestion cannot be discounted, even in those who never met him.

Nevertheless I did see the predicted meter and PC indicators when past lives were run.

Does this mean Ron's hypothesis was correct or does it mean simply that meter phenomena were accurately observed in the early "research"? Or were they wrongly interpreted as to meaning?

Read Cyril Vosper's book "The MindBenders" for experience of the original past life "research" done under Nib's supervision. You'll get an idea of the atmosphere of expectation amongst the participants. Peer pressure and guru suggestion cannot be discounted as an explanation.

So what else could explain the meter phenomena and PC indicators?

One hypothesis could be that the PC is expecting to run former lives, because it has been suggested to him that he will and should. Combined with the fact that this would "prove" his immortality, one would expect him to feel a degree of excitement and anticipation.

The auditor suggests or asks for an earlier incident and suddenly the PC sees a picture of a different life. His immortality is suddenly "proved" and he expects this picture or an earlier one to explain and be the cause of a this lifetime problem. The relief, and "charge" coming off would loosen the TA and the needle. The PC would start to feel better because he has been led to believe this is the source of his problem. He would brighten up, let go of mental images or trauma, meter blowdown and needle float.

So the meter and PC indicators could be reacting to expectation fulfilled, and anticipation realised, rather than truth revealed.

This could be simply tested by having two groups. One is told they should expect to contact former lives and that they need to do so to get beneift. The second control group is not told anything about what could or should happen.

Each participant would be interviewed before as to expectation and afterwards as to expectations fulfilled or not. The meter behaviour and PC indicators would be recorded during the sessions

Of course Hubbo never did any such thing. Remember too that per his admissions he believed his words had an hypnotic effect upon people and that he understood and could predict their emotions and psychology. It seems he might well have been correct! :roflmao:
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Thanks Lionheart

Lionhart, Thank for the fine post. You answered my question objectively after looking at the question from several angles. You've stated it well, I have nothing more to ask or to add.
lkwdblds
 

Winston Smith

Flunked Scientology
out in the field, far away from the fence

I have known several old timers of Scn. Some say after the journey you realize you are no different than when you began. Others see grave evil in what LRH perpetrated. Some just want to go on with their lives and leave it all in the dustbin. I have also seen promising individuals in other fields be destroyed by being sidetracked into the never-never land.

It particularly preys on the young, and I must say with great pride I have been able to catch some idealistic young people and save them before ruining their lives. There is no magic answer to life. The best we can do is try to be ethical (NOT in the Scn sense), have our eyes wide open, and keep striving toward our own personal goals. (Not goals set for us by anyone.) The length of time it takes to make our dreams reality is not the criterion.

From my vantage point, Scn wasted valuable time, and money that could have been used to much better advantage. In the end, it is only a cult of greed with no remorse shown toward its victims, some whom have committed suicide, others who have lost fortunes.

For me there is no other answer than realizing that Scn has no one's interest at heart and therefore there is no contest about which "side of the fence" to be on. If you think there is such a contest, you are deluded.
 
I have known several old timers of Scn. Some say after the journey you realize you are no different than when you began. Others see grave evil in what LRH perpetrated. Some just want to go on with their lives and leave it all in the dustbin. I have also seen promising individuals in other fields be destroyed by being sidetracked into the never-never land.

It particularly preys on the young, and I must say with great pride I have been able to catch some idealistic young people and save them before ruining their lives. There is no magic answer to life. The best we can do is try to be ethical (NOT in the Scn sense), have our eyes wide open, and keep striving toward our own personal goals. (Not goals set for us by anyone.) The length of time it takes to make our dreams reality is not the criterion.

From my vantage point, Scn wasted valuable time, and money that could have been used to much better advantage. In the end, it is only a cult of greed with no remorse shown toward its victims, some whom have committed suicide, others who have lost fortunes.

For me there is no other answer than realizing that Scn has no one's interest at heart and therefore there is no contest about which "side of the fence" to be on. If you think there is such a contest, you are deluded.

Great post! Really, really, well put.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 

Sir Facer

Patron with Honors
Yes this is a great post!!!

I have known several old timers of Scn. Some say after the journey you realize you are no different than when you began. Others see grave evil in what LRH perpetrated. Some just want to go on with their lives and leave it all in the dustbin. I have also seen promising individuals in other fields be destroyed by being sidetracked into the never-never land.

It particularly preys on the young, and I must say with great pride I have been able to catch some idealistic young people and save them before ruining their lives. There is no magic answer to life. The best we can do is try to be ethical (NOT in the Scn sense), have our eyes wide open, and keep striving toward our own personal goals. (Not goals set for us by anyone.) The length of time it takes to make our dreams reality is not the criterion.

From my vantage point, Scn wasted valuable time, and money that could have been used to much better advantage. In the end, it is only a cult of greed with no remorse shown toward its victims, some whom have committed suicide, others who have lost fortunes.

For me there is no other answer than realizing that Scn has no one's interest at heart and therefore there is no contest about which "side of the fence" to be on. If you think there is such a contest, you are deluded.

Hi Winston:coolwink: ,
Fantastic Posting, this is actually the way it is and creating great lives from now on is definately the key. Take care:thumbsup:
 
There has never been a time like this.

If you truly believe in the tech and don't want to see your churches demolished then I think it's time to get of the fence. I don't see how it is possible anymore to simultaneously be a critic and a Scientology supporter. I think it is time to make your position clear.

Emma.. I dont beileive in the tech.. an auditor to me is a bar tender.. they only listen to you because the establisment is gonna get paid similar to a cos autitor. i dont need no fancy machines or tech just good old fashoined freindship when i feel blue to make the sun shiny bright and the horizon clear.. I dont think L Ron had any more answers for life then you do or i do.

What i do know is you have a right to beleive in what you will without persecution from another religion..

Emma.. perhaps if the movement reached out the public more.. what we see of the anti movement is people with V for Vendetta mask.. *horrible movie. Id rather live in facist brittian that have that long winded lunatic save me*

Emma. If your cause can do a better job of informing the general public. Most of the anti church stuff is made for ex's. This message board doesnt offer much insight to the church for people who dont know of scientology.

I think the movement would do better if you all where more open to people who dont understand you but have genuine intrest in your cause.

Basically show us this fence.. show the world the fence .. so people can decide where they would like to sit.
 

SchwimmelPuckel

Genuine Meatball
<snip> people with V for Vendetta mask.. *horrible movie. Id rather live in facist brittian that have that long winded lunatic save me*
Support Scientology and you can have it! :) - Hmm.. I and others will work to prevent it though..

<snip> This message board doesnt offer much insight to the church for people who dont know of scientology.
That would be the Cults own job, really! - I disagree anyway.. This board does indeed inform what Scientology really is.

And I don't get you drift in this post.. Do you think Emma calls for scientologists to fight for their religion?

Hmm.. She may call for them to quit lying and actually abolish some of the more offensive and evil practices and policies... But I think it's too late for the Sinister Cult of Scientology.. That cult needs to go.. It's high time really!

:yes:
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
There has never been a time like this.

If you truly believe in the tech and don't want to see your churches demolished then I think it's time to get of the fence. I don't see how it is possible anymore to simultaneously be a critic and a Scientology supporter. I think it is time to make your position clear.

Emma.. I dont beileive in the tech.. an auditor to me is a bar tender.. they only listen to you because the establisment is gonna get paid similar to a cos autitor.


Lispinpril, by your own admission you know very little about the practices and beliefs of Scientology. Auditors do not just "listen" and they don't "get paid" in CofS- almost never. Most are staff and they work their ass off for almost no money ever. They are about their pcs. Have you ever met any auditors or talked to any- including former auditors? I don't think so. Auditing involves more than "just listening". There are thousands of auditing processes and they all involve a lot of back and forth communication between pc and auditor. Whether one believes in the efficacy of auditing or not, it's a fact that anyone who knows anything about auditing knows that auditors have a number of things they do in auditing sessions, depending on the process. They usually (not always) have metering that they do. They do repair lists if the pc is not doing well, they respond to different things the pc says in different ways that vary from process to process. An experienced auditor has to undergo a lot of training and learn a lot of "patter" for a lot of processes. He or she has to be able to evaluate the need for a repair list, or for a present time problem to be resolved, for session to be stopped at certain points rather than others, he or she has to be able to recognize and deal with realizations the pc has and with any problems the person is having dealing with anything in session.

Using your logic, one wouldn't need psychoanalysts, either, friendly discussions on sunny days (allegedly) producing the same effect and all.

i dont need no fancy machines or tech just good old fashoined freindship when i feel blue to make the sun shiny bright and the horizon clear.. I dont think L Ron had any more answers for life then you do or i do.

I've had and have friends and I've had auditing. It's not even remotely the same thing.


What i do know is you have a right to beleive in what you will without persecution from another religion..


Persecution can come from all sorts of places, not just from "other religions".


Emma.. perhaps if the movement reached out the public more.. what we see of the anti movement is people with V for Vendetta mask.. *horrible movie. Id rather live in facist brittian that have that long winded lunatic save me*

LOL! :thumbsup:


Emma. If your cause can do a better job of informing the general public. Most of the anti church stuff is made for ex's. This message board doesnt offer much insight to the church for people who dont know of scientology.


I disagree. Many people here have detailed their experiences in the cult and have discussed the hierarchy and other elements of CofS. There are all sorts of sections here for different things. And people have answered your questions about the way Scn works well enough. This is a good place to learn about all that.


I think the movement would do better if you all where more open to people who dont understand you but have genuine intrest in your cause.

In what way are ESMB and Emma not "more open" ?
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
ESMB serves its purpose; WWP serves its. We don't need no steenkin lowest common denominator :)

That said, everybody (even OSA) is allowed on ESMB and, even for the totally ignorant, there are plenty of people willing to do explanations. But, although there is a common community here, there is no 'common purpose' or 'party line' as regards 'activism' and 'what to do'. There are other places for that and, they work well *with* ESMB for those so interested.

But, if ESMB were a rah rah, shoulder to shoulder git er done type place, I wouldn't bother with it.

Zinj
 
Hmm.. She may call for them to quit lying and actually abolish some of the more offensive and evil practices and policies... But I think it's too late for the Sinister Cult of Scientology.. That cult needs to go.. It's high time really!

guess what im asking is. what can a wog do to help.. Emma talked of this fence. its full of current scio people one side and ex's and free zoners on the other. this fence is across the feild from the sidewalk. where *everyone else walks* how can somone who sees injustice on from there vantage point on sidwalk the who doesnt care to practice dianectics or scientology help.

and keep bringing the fence closer ot sidewalk. some of us wogs are taking notice..
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Hmm.. She may call for them to quit lying and actually abolish some of the more offensive and evil practices and policies... But I think it's too late for the Sinister Cult of Scientology.. That cult needs to go.. It's high time really!

guess what im asking is. what can a wog do to help.. Emma talked of this fence. its full of current scio people one side and ex's and free zoners on the other. this fence is across the feild from the sidewalk. where *everyone else walks* how can somone who sees injustice on from there vantage point on sidwalk the who doesnt care to practice dianectics or scientology help.

and keep bringing the fence closer ot sidewalk. some of us wogs are taking notice..

The best thing a 'wog' can do is educate himself and then decide what *he* wants to do. Not decide what 'other people' should be doing :)

Zinj
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Hmm.. She may call for them to quit lying and actually abolish some of the more offensive and evil practices and policies... But I think it's too late for the Sinister Cult of Scientology.. That cult needs to go.. It's high time really!

guess what im asking is. what can a wog do to help.. Emma talked of this fence. its full of current scio people one side and ex's and free zoners on the other. this fence is across the feild from the sidewalk. where *everyone else walks* how can somone who sees injustice on from there vantage point on sidwalk the who doesnt care to practice dianectics or scientology help.

and keep bringing the fence closer ot sidewalk. some of us wogs are taking notice..

There are many ways to oppose the cult or to speak out. Not just one way.
 
There are many ways to oppose the cult or to speak out. Not just one way.


Fluffy yes im tottaly ignorant of the ways of scientology also of Psychology and Psychiatry.

I do like to study religion however. A few years ago as i was zipping back and forth between coast in N.America i would walk into a church, Mosque, or temple, and ask a preacher whats a baptist? or whats greek orthodox? whats shia islam? whats a conservative jew. whats the angel moroni? what does a white mountain apache medicine man do? A Maharishi in Vedic City a town in rural america offered to put me up for the night i asked so many questions.. At the time i never stopped into an org.. never crossed my mind. and i dont know why.

Scientology is simply the most complicated to me as an outsider.. you cant really talk to current members. and if you talk to an ex its like entereing a message board for retired vets.. the military lingo,ranking structure,etc.

Fluffy you have been an very intresting guide.. youve poked me with the questions stick as much as ive poked this board. thank you Fluffy
 
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Emma. If your cause can do a better job of informing the general public. Most of the anti church stuff is made for ex's. This message board doesnt offer much insight to the church for people who dont know of scientology.

That would possibly be because the target audience for this website is "ex-scientologists" and not "people who dont know of scientology".

Hint: what does ESMB stand for?

See also: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=3



I think the movement would do better if you all where more open to people who dont understand you but have genuine intrest in your cause.

The "cause" was well expressed by Emma on the "Board Rules" & "Board FAQ" pages (see http://www.forum.exscn.net/index.php? ).

Evidently your "cause" is not aligned with the purpose of this board. Perhaps you should spend more time on a board that aligns with your own purposes. :)


Mark A. Baker
 
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