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"Bad Apples or Bad Barrels?" by fishdaddy

VaD

Gold Meritorious Patron
Great post by Jeff on his blog:
http://leavingscientology.wordpress.com/2010/11/21/bad-apples-or-bad-barrels/

I’m reading a fascinating book: The Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil by Phil Zimbardo, the Stanford professor who conducted the famous Stanford Prison Experiment in 1971. A good one to add to your reading list.

In this experiment, he took a group of college boys, carefully tested them to ensure there was no sign of mental illness, sociopathy or sadism, then randomly assigned them to play the roles of guards and prisoners in a mock prison set up in the basement of Stanford’s Jordan Hall. After just days, the experiment spiraled out of control, with the guards ultimately submitting the prisoners to sadistic abuse far beyond the needs of role playing, and the prisoners descending into very real depression and apathy. In The Lucifer Effect, Zimbardo describes the experiment in detail, correlating it with much later research by himself and others, including his work with Abu Ghraib prison guards.

Of course, as I was reading the book, my mind went to my own experiences at the Int Base, which were eerily similar to the abuses, degradation and mind games carried out by the SPE “guards.”

Zimbardo talks about what he refers to as the “bad apple – bad barrel” question. Are evil acts the sole result of “bad apples” – individuals who are simply, by nature, evil – or are there also situational and systemic factors – “bad barrels” – that can cause even good, decent people to carry out, support or tolerate evil acts?

It’s an interesting question. Most institutions – law, medicine, psychology, even religion – focus on an individualistic orientation. When bad things happen, it’s because of bad people, period. In history, we tend to focus on the one evil individual who was responsible for everything bad that happened – a Saddam Hussein, a Stalin, a Hitler. Hitler, for instance, was responsible for the Holocaust as we all know.

Really?

No – it took a huge propaganda machine to turn the German people against their Jewish neighbors. There were books that had to be written, pamphlets circulated, newspapers and magazines about the Jewish “problem” and what to do about it. Jews had to be transported and guarded. Huge prison compounds and extermination chambers had to be built. Poisons had to be developed and manufactured. And one guy did all this? No, there was something else, systemic factors that caused normal, everyday German people to support, tolerate and even commit acts of unspeakable evil.

There’s a quote I love from Alexandr Solzhenitsyn, describing his own prison experience in Gulag Archipelago. He writes: “Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not between states nor between social classes nor between political parties, but right through every human heart, through all human hearts.”

This resonates with me as I saw a lot of abuse and cruelty at the Int Base, some of it carried out by people I knew to be basically good, moral, decent people. And it raises the question, why?

I get frustrated when I hear “it’s all David Miscavige.” Sure, the man is a dangerous sociopath, I of all people know that, having worked with him “up close and personal.” But there are a couple of things wrong with this “it’s all Miscavige” theory.

First, Hubbard himself would reject it as a Why, per his own Data Series criteria, for two reasons. One, it’s not a Why, it’s a Who. And two, it can be “how comed.” As in “How come one individual can corrupt the entirety of Scientology, tens of thousands of people, including highly trained auditors, OTs and Sea Org veterans, all of whom have at their command what Scientology promotes as the most advanced technology of the human mind and life, including PTS/SP technology?” Well, that’s a good question. A proper Why would answer it. And it’s not “he’s an SP.” What, that gives him super-powers? (See my last post)

Another problem I have with the “it’s all Miscavige” theory is that I personally observed systemic abuse within Scientology as early as 1968. Miscavige was eight years old. Want some examples? Read my book, Counterfeit Dreams.

And this isn’t an invitation for some rant – “see, it’s not Miscavige – it’s all Hubbard’s fault!” That’s just another Who, isn’t it?

We’re not looking to lay blame. We’re not searching for more Whos. Why don’t we look and see if we can find some situational or systemic factors which tend to make Scientologists, staff, or Sea Org Members tolerate, support or even carry out evil, abusive acts?

Zimbardo points out that defenders of the System (whatever System it may be) tend to divert attention away from an inspection of the System. He encountered this when looking into the abuses at Abu Ghraib. The US military, of course, insisted there was nothing wrong with the military system, the prison, or the procedures. All the abuses were only due to “a few bad apples.” Nothing to see here, keep moving…

Defenders of Scientology, similarly, are hesitant to inspect the System. “There is nothing wrong with the Scientology system,” they might insist. “It’s all David Miscavige.” That’s too bad, because if anyone is serious about reforming Scientology, they should be very, very curious about the real reasons (the real Why, if you will) for Scientology’s systemic problems, and how they can be avoided in future.

What do I mean by systemic problems? Well, two of the factors Zimbardo talks about in his book, factors that encourage people to be abusive to others, are deindividuation and dehumanization. A person who puts on a guard uniform and reflective sunglasses, as in the Stanford Prison Experiment, becomes less of an individual. A man who puts on a guard uniform at Abu Ghraib undergoes the same transformation. He is in a different world with different rules. He is not himself, he is a “guard.”

Well, what about a person who puts on a Sea Org uniform at the Int Base, told they are to “penalize downstats”? Or a person who is given a baton, told he is the “Master-at-Arms,” and told that his job is to “find and eliminate counter-intention.”

And dehumanization. During the Stanford Prison Experiment, the prisoners were all given filthy smocks with numbers sewn on the front, and forced to live in degraded conditions. The guards referred to them as “dogs.” At Abu Ghraib, the prisoners were “towel-heads,” “arab dogs” or worse. It’s “okay” to abuse those who are lesser beings.

Well, how about “downstats”? How about “CI” people? Sure, if someone is “downstat” or “CI” it’s OK to harass, punish and abuse them, make them “do laps,” or scrub out dumpsters or clean out a septic pond. It’s OK to throw them in the harbor or in the lake, or even to shove them, punch them, or knock them down.

Would these people act this way at home, with their families, or in the communities where they grew up? Probably not. But immersed in a new world with new rules, and given a role to play, they do.

And I can hear all the objections now. “That’s not what Hubbard intended! It’s not what he wrote! It’s a misapplication…”

Well, when virtually every Scientology Org I ever worked in, from 1968 to 2005, was plagued with this kind of abuse to a greater or lesser degree, it’s hard to argue that it’s not systemic.

Here’s an interesting Wall Street Journal Article (http://leavingscientology.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/wall-street-journal-article.pdf) about an attempt to implement Hubbard’s Admin Tech in the Allstate Insurance Company in the late 1980s, early 1990s. Does this sound familiar?

“Allstate employees who took the classes say an important, although hardly exclusive, theme of the training was an uncompromising commitment to the bottom line — even if that meant treating poor performers harshly. The course materials warned managers never to be sympathetic to someone whose productivity numbers, or ‘statistics,’ were down…”

“Workers with declining production had to be investigated immediately, the course taught. ‘A person with low statistics not only has no ethics protection but tends to be hounded,’ the training manual said…”

“‘It allowed management by intimidation. It was vindictive — a way to try to remove people,’ Mr. Richardson says. ‘We would harass agents by calling them constantly and visiting them repeatedly…’”

“Across the country, a number of agents were making complaints similar to those voiced in Arizona. Lawsuits and Equal Employment Opportunity Commission complaints were proliferating; more than two dozen have alleged fraud, harassment or discrimination by Allstate, often in connection with wrongful-discharge cases. One manager joked about forcing so many to quit that they would have to bring in ‘body bags’ to cart them away, while others described agents with low productivity as below the ‘scum line,’ workers said in pretrial statements related to these lawsuits.”

A few bad apples? Or a bad barrel?
 

Stat

Gold Meritorious Patron
Right on.

For anyone who had a first-hand and sufficiently long experience of being in, it's nearly impossible to disagree with what Jeff says in his amazing book and his blog. Very good post/thread, Vadim. Thank you.
 

VaD

Gold Meritorious Patron
Now there is also very illustrative of "Lucifer Effect" movie that came out this year called the Experiment.
Here is the trailer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqmh_wzF0E4
Plot:
“26 men are chosen to participate in the roles of guards and prisoners in a psychological study to examine how the effects of assigned roles, power and control affected the participants. But the experiment ultimately spirals out of control…”
Film was released directly to DVD on Sept. 21, 2010.
 

paradox

ab intra silentio vera
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paradox

ab intra silentio vera

VaD

Gold Meritorious Patron
The Why is in the System

I agree wholeheartedly with both Jeff's and Just Bill's analyses.

Jeff says:
Defenders of Scientology, similarly, are hesitant to inspect the System. “There is nothing wrong with the Scientology system,” they might insist. “It’s all David Miscavige.” That’s too bad, because if anyone is serious about reforming Scientology, they should be very, very curious about the real reasons (the real Why, if you will) for Scientology’s systemic problems, and how they can be avoided in future.

Let's see word "system" first:
http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?lextype=3&search=system
system
1. complex whole formed from related parts: a combination of related parts organized into a complex whole
a social system

2. set of principles: a scheme of ideas or principles by which something is organized
the democratic system
the metric system


3. way of proceeding: a method or set of procedures for achieving something
I have worked out a system for identifying likely failures.

4. orderliness: the use or result of careful planning and organization
There doesn't seem to be any system in his working methods.

5. established social organization: the established social order, especially when regarded as oppressive
You can't beat the system.

6. whole body: the human or animal body as a unit
foods that are not good for the system

7. group of related body parts: a set of organs or structures in the body that have a common function
the nervous system
... more of specialized definitions, that are derived from the one's above are left out

[Early 17th century. Directly or via French< late Latin systema< Greek sustēma< sunistanai "combine" < histanai "set up"]

We, humans, like systems, don't we?
Our bodies (and sometimes, minds - if treated properly, and free of BS) work like a clockwork.
Now, those are Natural systems.

What happens if a person (or a group of people) create a System (philosophical, spiritual, political, religious)?
They are often believable, i.e. humans like them and believe in them as "THE way to go" (or, as with Scn, "THE ONLY WAY"). Or have to follow them out of fear and repressions (as dissidents in USSR).

I call these systems man-made, (or some more directly artificial) as opposed to Natural systems.

Some more word clearing here:
http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?lextype=3&search=cult
cult
1. religion: a system of religious or spiritual beliefs, especially an informal and transient belief system regarded by others as misguided, unorthodox, extremist, or false, and directed by a charismatic, authoritarian leader
... more definitions there if you like


Man-made (artificial) systems are likely to become a cult.

And the WHY is in the System itself.
In other words, it's the System that's fallacious.

The System comes from The Source who is human (Hubbard, Zimbardo, Milgram...), i.e. from the one who set up rules, roles and channels.

But where is the Why? No it's not in The Source. It's in the heads of those who adopted the System (believe in it, want to follow it, or in love with it, enforce it, must obey to it).

Hope message above isn't confusing.
 

Jachs

Gold Meritorious Patron
Very appropriate posting,

i thought it was Miscavige ,

but ive adopted the same thoughts,

that its A Military Organisation with military rules and culture in charge

of a religious philosophy, with willing soldiers akin to Mao?

The Control of China and grace of Tibet Monks dont mix, try being both at the same time.:unsure:



Never work.
Arthur or Martha?


Decloak the SO.
 

Stat

Gold Meritorious Patron
Mental systems is not a good concept, the way I see it.

"In my opinion, the best advice anyone can give or get on repairing the mind damage from Scn would be to follow nature. When you fall down and scrape yourself the body knows to form a protective scab. And without doing anything, the body knows how to heal itself---if you don't pick at it or try to handle it. Same with the mind. leave it alone. It will heal all by itself. Don't prepcheck it and don't pick at it if you don't want scars." - HelluvaHoax!
.
 

VaD

Gold Meritorious Patron
just so you know

Some of my posts lately haven't been directed at Scn (Co$, DM, Hubbard, Scn fallacies,...).

That's because now I see everything in and around Scn (abuses, harrassements, molestations, and - even criticizing Scn, Hubbard, Marty, DM... on ESMB) as an example of a cult and its effects (reverberations, ripples that keep coming up in a person's life).

I have another perspective now. Human Nature, it is. Reality, it is.
Human Nature/Reality VS. Cults/Man-made systems.

Any cult's target audience are the gullible ones.
And, unfortunately, many-many of humans are gullible (I'd say 95%, but you won't agree, and it's ok).
Thus, cults prosper.
But who would care if cults would have harvested only "bad seeds"? - Would you?
I wouldn't. I would call it "natural selection" and leave it at that.

What's bad about cults is that they remove from society and Reality many of the best of us, many capable beings (who would, otherwise, win in natural selection contest).

That's why I'm very interested in effective ways of "preventive deprogramming" for our loved ones and for capable beings so we are together, leaving cults by the board.
 

VaD

Gold Meritorious Patron
Very appropriate posting,

i thought it was Miscavige ,

but ive adopted the same thoughts,

that its A Military Organisation with military rules and culture in charge

of a religious philosophy, with willing soldiers akin to Mao?

Decloak the SO.


Yes.
It's a culture bred by the Source.

DM is the most brainwashed cultie (I said it few months back on Jeff's blog).
Recent evidence: here was some thread about Jesse Prince pointing out to Marty's blog that DM had never raised his hand on someone until he got direct orders in writing from LRH to spit on David Mayo and John Aczel, and intimidate them. Then he got some more orders in writing to punch, and he punched.
And - there it went.
You might say it was DM's "origination". To me, it wasn't. He was following LRH orders. Per the policy he has been right. (I'm sure he still has this policy in his mind as his guideline when he abuses staff members).

It wasn't that he himself introduced that system of physical punishment and humiliation of others.
DM, being to-the-letter follower of what LRH said, has had every right (in his head) to do what LRH said to do.

And, believe it or not, I understand him. I see his viewpoint. I can see myself in his place.
Not that I would ever want to be in his place, but I see him as "the most dedicated to LRH out of those who ever have been"
 

VaD

Gold Meritorious Patron
about the Source

Is Hubbard the Why?

I don't think so.

If people hadn't accepted his System, there wouldn't be Scientologists, FreeZoners, Indies, Ex-Scientologists, critics of Scientology... (BTW, if we make a poll and get the total number of those mentoned above, there wouldn't be so many. Not enough to make global fuss about it.... or even a fuss inside one nation, for that matter)

Hubbard created a believable system.

Gullible ones fell for it. He exploited it and them.

Hubbard is dead.

The System is still here - in his writings (now "sacred scriptures" according to David Miscavige, the best Scientology can produce, it's Super-Model).

That system is within. Not in "MEST" (books, insignia, photos).

Either System has you, or you F*#k the System. - That seems to me a good answer.
 
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Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP


It WAS a great post by Jeff. Thanks for reposting here on ESMB. I hope that any people that have the mission to go back to the CoS after Miscavige is gone (believing that DM is the WHY for all that has been bad within CoS) will read and understand this post by Jeff.



If people hadn't accepted his System, there wouldn't be Scientologists, FreeZoners, Indies, Ex-Scientologists, critics of Scientology... (BTW, if we make a poll and get the total number of those mentoned above, there wouldn't be so many. Not enough to make global fuss about it.... or even a fuss inside one nation, for that matter)

How many lives have to be ruined by an organization before we "make a fuss" over it?
 

VaD

Gold Meritorious Patron
Man-made systems are just twisted Natural laws

I see Scientology now as just one of the numerous (throughout the history up until these days) attempts to match the Nature (or, for some cults, even exceed it).

Hubbard's writings were for those who believed those writings. Many believed.

As I posted above, humans prefer some "system" rather than not having any.

It's only human to have some human's system adopted...
 

VaD

Gold Meritorious Patron
How many lives have to be ruined by an organization before we "make a fuss" over it?

If you saw my other posts in this thread (and my sig line), you can ask me more direct questions.

Answers in advance:
Yes, Scn ruins people's lives.
Yes, speaking out loud about it's abses it necessary.
No, "the only reason" is not Hubbard himself.

Fire away your questions, my friend! :yes:
 

VaD

Gold Meritorious Patron
follow-up...

It's not that some people just like "sadomasochism".
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadomasochism)

They just get used to it.
"The system is right and I'm wrong" - Sounds familiar?

It's not about Hubbard.
It's about the System he created.

If we want to get abuses over with, we need to address the System.

Not individuals involved, or having been involved in it.

The system is in Hubbard's writings.

P.S. Some time ago here I was happy that Russia banned most of LRH materials. Some here argued that it was "Draconian measures".
Oh, well. To me, when bad System is removed many good things follow.:yes:
 

VaD

Gold Meritorious Patron
Mental systems is not a good concept, the way I see it.

"In my opinion, the best advice anyone can give or get on repairing the mind damage from Scn would be to follow nature. When you fall down and scrape yourself the body knows to form a protective scab. And without doing anything, the body knows how to heal itself---if you don't pick at it or try to handle it. Same with the mind. leave it alone. It will heal all by itself. Don't prepcheck it and don't pick at it if you don't want scars." - HelluvaHoax!
.

HH's line is great! Love it! :thumbsup:

As to your post, Stat, my opinion is:
mental, religious, spiritual, political, philosophical systems are no good.

They just keep fucking up one's head (one way or another).

But! I suspect that most of the people won't agree with me. And it's ok!
 

AnonyMary

Formerly Fooled - Finally Free
Good post by Jeff. I was a part of that insanity, so it rings true to me . Bet it won't for Marty
 
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