Cultic or human nature?

[Voltaire's Child]

Emma's achieved a great deal, for sure. I figured the board would be nice and all, but she really succeeded with it beyond my expectations. My expectations weren't low, you understand, but still, Emma's been kicking butt more than I anticipated.

Very very cool.

And her stat gathering seems to be lighthearted. I don't see her screaming about stats or any of that other nonsense.

 

[Free to shine]

When I was in, this was a Div 6 stat, not HCO's.

Yes it was a Div 6 stat, but for some reason way back then it applied to me too. I had other stats I think, like for the phones, memory is a bit hazy. I think the idea was that the whole Reception-Reg-Treasury line was a unit and if it didn't work to have the public moving fast onto services, then we were to blame. We had lots of dummy runs at the time, people we didn't know coming in with routing forms to see how fast they were handled and gotten to Tech etc. And the three of us on those posts did become a tight little group.
This was old, old SHUK.

 

[ExScnDude]

It's just human nature.

There's no shortage of hateful little games out here.

That's not much of a friend who would disconnect just because you are in communication with someone else that they don't like.

 

[jodie]

It's just human nature.

There's no shortage of hateful little games out here.

That's not much of a friend who would disconnect just because you are in communication with someone else that they don't like.

No shit, sherlock. It is because the world is so fucked up that I got into Scientology in the first place, looking for hope and a way of helping make the world a better place.

- jodie

 

[Emma]

I appreciate all your answers. Each one has given me food for thought.

I think it comes down to this:

*I* need to stop categorising myself and others actions as "cultic or uncultic" because it will just drive me nuts.

People are people and whether they have ever been in a cult or not they will do good things & bad things, and some of those things are things that cults also do. A lot of what make cults so successful is that they play on peoples fears and insecurities and make people do strange things. Life itself can also make people do strange things without any cultic involvement.

I'm no different. I do dumb things too and I hate it when I get accused of doing those things because of my involvement in Scientology. Sometimes I'm just dumb all on my own.

 

[Free to shine]

I appreciate all your answers. Each one has given me food for thought.

I think it comes down to this:

*I* need to stop categorising myself and others actions as "cultic or uncultic" because it will just drive me nuts.

The way I negotiate life is to try and become more aware of any automatic responses to events or people that may come from indoctrination. It's not about categorising, just being aware. Then you have your power of choice back.

 

[lionheart]

Cultic or human nature?

It seems to me that cults are human nature. (Not basic human nature.)

After all, how did they become cults to begin with? Humans created them.

This is something that I have thought about myself quite a bit.

I have observed a number of groups that started out with a pretty good goal and purpose and wound up being cults.

It's just the track that a group always seems to take, especially after the founder is gone, and it bugs me.

The Church of Scientology is only one example of many but let's use it. Take KSW for instance. A person could actually read that, evaluate it for whatever valid points it may be trying to make and use it to forward a purpose, but nooooooooo, they have to focus on the stupid stuff. Let's all go around and act real tough-like; let's make being reasonable a sin instead of a virtue; let's bow down and be humble to this idol. Etc., etc. To hell with the original purpose, let's take or own half-witted interpretations and just go through the motions of doing these so we will be acceptable.

I don't know if you were around when KSW first came out.

For the record, in my experience, there was never a time when one could read that PL and "evaluate it for whatever valid points it may be trying to make"

When I was in it was always read literally and was the PL, more than any other, that turned Scn into a cult. If you read the PL again, you will see that there are several characteristics of a cult expressed in the PL. Ron designed it to produce robotic tough slaves, in my opinion.

I never saw any period where KSW was applied with discretion. The very PL itself forbids this. It describes reasonableness as theety-weety and I saw it turn many fair, decent people into Rondrod thugs!

Sorry, but that was my experience of KSW back when Ron was alive. To understand the cult that is the CofS you have to view as exactly as possible what actually turned it into a cult.

From KSW to the RTC takeover in 82, I observed Scn turn into a cult at LRH's command spreading from the Flagship outwards to the Missions. The main tool he used to accomplish this was KSW.

 

[Alan]

I appreciate all your answers. Each one has given me food for thought.

I think it comes down to this:

*I* need to stop categorising myself and others actions as "cultic or uncultic" because it will just drive me nuts.

People are people and whether they have ever been in a cult or not they will do good things & bad things, and some of those things are things that cults also do. A lot of what make cults so successful is that they play on peoples fears and insecurities and make people do strange things. Life itself can also make people do strange things without any cultic involvement.

I'm no different. I do dumb things too and I hate it when I get accused of doing those things because of my involvement in Scientology. Sometimes I'm just dumb all on my own.

Emma you asked the perfect question - (for me) - I've spent 30 years de-cultifying myself and the people around me - but - that is a negative unmock process!

I've never asked myself or the people I'm connected to -

"What type of culture would I love to belong to - and love to contribute to?"

 

[Alanzo]

Emma you asked the perfect question - (for me) - I've spent 30 years de-cultifying myself and the people around me - but - that is a negative unmock process!

I've never asked myself or the people I'm connected to -

"What type of culture would I love to belong to - and love to contribute to?"

That's the real question, Alan.

That opens up spirituality again for me.

I know that if I can feel "sacredness" for something again, that it would be a sign of healing for me. Because I went into Scientology full of the ability to feel sacredness. And it was that ability that got bashed-in when I woke up from Scientology.

I know exactly the type of culture I would love to belong to - and to contribute to.

I think Emma has started a little bitty one right here!

 

[Free to shine]

I think Emma has started a little bitty one right here!

So do I.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

So is new course starts a Div 6 stat or a tech stat?

 

[Bea Kiddo]

So is new course starts a Div 6 stat or a tech stat?

Going from a Div 6 course to a major course is a Div 6 stat. It is Div 6's job to get the public from Div 6 over into Div 4 (major services).

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Ok, so when I was in that crappy little courseroom at that crappy little mission doing the course supervision (and all we had were low level courses since it was a mission) and they told me that it was my responsibility (fault!!) re the new starts on course, that it was my stat- then that was utter b.s., right? Div VI should have been the ones?

God, that pissed me off.

 

[Bea Kiddo]

Ok, so when I was in that crappy little courseroom at that crappy little mission doing the course supervision (and all we had were low level courses since it was a mission) and they told me that it was my responsibility (fault!!) re the new starts on course, that it was my stat- then that was utter b.s., right? Div VI should have been the ones?

God, that pissed me off.

They would find a way to blame you, yes. Because if tech was in, of course people would flock in. You know their "logic".

 

[Chowderhead]

I think this is my first post here but I have been lurking for awhile. I have been out of scientology for 15 years and I had never read these boards or others during that period because after a time I kind of forgot about scientology.Every once in a while it would rear its ugly head in my life though. The most recent example of this was last summer when I found out my wife is pregnant. I started thinking about the birth process and I was considering using the silent birth method. Then I started to ask myself why I would think of that after all of these years. The indoctrination runs very deep indeed. I started to look at all of my attitudes towards things. I found that scientology still influences my opinions and attitudes to this day. A lot of it is common sense. Hubbard did not have a monopoly on basic ideas such as using statistics to evaluate production. He just made us think he did. I remember when I was on post and I read some of my hat PLs and I would think most of it was stating the obvious. Hubbard had micromanagement down to a science. Thats what prevents people from thinking for themselves.
The truth of the matter is that some of scientology works and that is what kept us coming back. It was repackaged and had a new name but if you look at the stuff that actually works in scientology it is just good old common sense. Part of my healing process has been acknowledging that I am not a dumbass for buying it all. Part of that is recognizing the things that I found to be true and workable. I don't want to give the impression that I am a believer in scientology. I believe the program was designed specifically to bring people in with workable solutions to problems and then slowly introduce concepts that stretch a persons credulity. It starts off with 1+1=2 and 1+2=3 but before you know it you are given 1+4=6. You may question it but everything else you have learned has been true so now you assume that this one must be true too. Even if you question it you look for ways that it could be true to give the benefit of the doubt. After that its a small step to where you are filling in the blanks to find ways to make what you are told believeable to yourself. Once you have convinced yourself of one unbelievable thing it is very easy to believe another and another. After all many of them are based on the same fundamentally flawed concepts. Separating the good from the bad has been a long long process for me and it is not finished yet. I may never be finished. It's ok though. Scientology is not the only place where I have received false information and won't be the last. I just try to evaluate the data on an individual basis and I try not to invalidate myself when I find myself holding onto a scientology datum that is flawed. Truth is truth. Take what works and use it without shame.

 

[ExScnDude]

Truth is truth. Take what works and use it without shame.

Yes Sir! Agree completely.

Here's a bit of false data for you. Paraphrasing: You won't get production unless you demand it.

Got news for you: All you have to do is ask for it. This whole "demand" thing was Elron's personal aberration.

Besides, if you believe man is basically good, than what's all this demanding about? Don't you think people like to produce products?

The norm is to just ask. Demanding this and that all the time gives the impression that one thinks others are idiots.

I always tell my direct reports something like this: Here's the project, here's the date it's due. Does this seem realistic to you? Do you need any resources to get this done? Please communicate to me if you run into any problems.

Works like a charm. Most people like to be given responsibility and trust.

 

[namaste]

I agree also.

Very good points.

The proof is in the lousy results that they continue to get by using force.

 

[namaste]

I don't know if you were around when KSW first came out.

For the record, in my experience, there was never a time when one could read that PL and "evaluate it for whatever valid points it may be trying to make"

When I was in it was always read literally and was the PL, more than any other, that turned Scn into a cult. If you read the PL again, you will see that there are several characteristics of a cult expressed in the PL. Ron designed it to produce robotic tough slaves, in my opinion.

I never saw any period where KSW was applied with discretion. The very PL itself forbids this. It describes reasonableness as theety-weety and I saw it turn many fair, decent people into Rondrod thugs!

Sorry, but that was my experience of KSW back when Ron was alive. To understand the cult that is the CofS you have to view as exactly as possible what actually turned it into a cult.

From KSW to the RTC takeover in 82, I observed Scn turn into a cult at LRH's command spreading from the Flagship outwards to the Missions. The main tool he used to accomplish this was KSW.

You know, you are correct.
I was applying reason to the PL when I read it without even realizing it.
Whew! I could have been sent to ethics for that!!

 

[Alanzo]

I think this is my first post here but I have been lurking for awhile. I have been out of scientology for 15 years and I had never read these boards or others during that period because after a time I kind of forgot about scientology.Every once in a while it would rear its ugly head in my life though. The most recent example of this was last summer when I found out my wife is pregnant. I started thinking about the birth process and I was considering using the silent birth method. Then I started to ask myself why I would think of that after all of these years. The indoctrination runs very deep indeed. I started to look at all of my attitudes towards things. I found that scientology still influences my opinions and attitudes to this day. A lot of it is common sense. Hubbard did not have a monopoly on basic ideas such as using statistics to evaluate production. He just made us think he did. I remember when I was on post and I read some of my hat PLs and I would think most of it was stating the obvious. Hubbard had micromanagement down to a science. Thats what prevents people from thinking for themselves.
The truth of the matter is that some of scientology works and that is what kept us coming back. It was repackaged and had a new name but if you look at the stuff that actually works in scientology it is just good old common sense. Part of my healing process has been acknowledging that I am not a dumbass for buying it all. Part of that is recognizing the things that I found to be true and workable. I don't want to give the impression that I am a believer in scientology. I believe the program was designed specifically to bring people in with workable solutions to problems and then slowly introduce concepts that stretch a persons credulity. It starts off with 1+1=2 and 1+2=3 but before you know it you are given 1+4=6. You may question it but everything else you have learned has been true so now you assume that this one must be true too. Even if you question it you look for ways that it could be true to give the benefit of the doubt. After that its a small step to where you are filling in the blanks to find ways to make what you are told believeable to yourself. Once you have convinced yourself of one unbelievable thing it is very easy to believe another and another. After all many of them are based on the same fundamentally flawed concepts. Separating the good from the bad has been a long long process for me and it is not finished yet. I may never be finished. It's ok though. Scientology is not the only place where I have received false information and won't be the last. I just try to evaluate the data on an individual basis and I try not to invalidate myself when I find myself holding onto a scientology datum that is flawed. Truth is truth. Take what works and use it without shame.

Excellent points above, "ChowderHead".

And welcome to the board!

 

[Zinjifar]

It's ok though. Scientology is not the only place where I have received false information and won't be the last. I just try to evaluate the data on an individual basis and I try not to invalidate myself when I find myself holding onto a scientology datum that is flawed. Truth is truth. Take what works and use it without shame.

Glad you're posting and, welcome aboard!

Just as a added note to all the truth in your post; It's not *only* a case of rebranded common sense and even 'false data' that makes Scientology a dubious system. Even worse is the hidden *implications* attached to otherwise common sense. A Scientology 'truth' can be 90% true, but still contain a deliberately attached malicious implication that seems innocuous at first glance, yet is the basis of the worst of the indoctrination and mind fuck. Things like the 'SP' and 'PTS' theories, for example.

Those kinds of things are far more difficult to spot and remove than what's just rebranded or even completely false.

Another example; the management by stats. It's common sense, *except* for the implication that 'Stats Always Go UP' or else, they're being deliberately sabotaged. Etc.

Zinj