It's time to get off the fence

[Emma]

There has never been a time like this.

From early January until present time, there has never been this much pressure on Scientology. Things are coming to a head. You can see it and feel it. It's tangible.

In past times it has been kind of ok to have a foot in more than one camp. I know of people who have tried to occupy several position at once i.e. critic, scientologist, freezoner etc and done a kind of juggling act to keep it all together.

While it has clearly never been easy to perform the mental gymnastics necessary to maintain these opposing positions simuntaneously, it is now bordering on impossible.

The CoS is being attacked. Let's not make light of it. It IS being attacked legally, peacefully and legitimately. And it is being attacked HARD.

So where do you stand?

If you truly believe in the tech and don't want to see your churches demolished then I think it's time to get of the fence. I don't see how it is possible anymore to simultaneously be a critic and a Scientology supporter. I think it is time to make your position clear.

If you want your churches to survive then the time to fight is now! Tell us why they should survive. Tell us what changes need to happen. Tell us why you feel this way.

I'm not suggesting that it has to be a "you're either for us or against us" proposition, but in these times, at least it seems to me, one needs to clarify their own position, not only for others, but mainly for themselves.

 

[Alanzo]

I don't want to see the Church of Scientology destroyed.

I want to see it evolve from an abusive cult into a sustainable religion that helps people way more than it hurts them.

I want to see them get their ethics in, for real this time.

And for good.

 

[Mojo]

There has never been a time like this...

Excellent post.

Contrary to my normal method of operation being a knee-jerk response to what I have read, and posting that immediate response, this one requires a good deal of thought. A sorting out of sorts. A long thorough soul-searching contemplative silent engagement.

I'll be back with the answer in 7 minutes.

Mojo

 

[Lovesnightsky]

LOL Mojo

I believe that religions are a necessary evil, as are schools of thought and cults. They provide a service to those humans who get sucked into them.

With regard CofS, it would be nice to see it evolve into a real and helpful religion, but to tell the truth I couldn't care less if it does or gets destroyed, or stays the same actually.

We as a society created it, we, as scientologists, partook in it's survival at one point and for our own reasons. Yes, I do believe it is time it evolved into something else or get destroyed, but I also know that something else will take its place as it now exists.
This is not different to what I feel about humanity in general.

 

[Bea Kiddo]

I just want to have a normal family. I dont give a fuck what the church does. They can stay or go, for all I care. I just dont want to ever be part of it again. That is for sure.

I am over the fence, but still have people to help over the fence before I can walk away.

 

[Giuseppe]

I am over the fence, but still have people to help over the fence before I can walk away.

Giuseppe is over the fence, but Giuseppe pretend to be on the side of the Co$, and Giuseppes babies are having coat stuck to the fence!

 

[loiepoo]

I think Scientology's time is over

The cult movement is over. We are on the cusp of the Aquarian Age, where independent, free thinking rules. More and more we recognize our inner teacher as our true guide. Our AUTHORITY is INSIDE. We are being guided moment by moment by our own true Authority. All we have to do is pay attention. We no longer need a "Priest, Cult leader, Teacher" to tell us what to believe, what to think. We are our own Guru, Teacher.

 

[The Oracle]

Alanzo speaks for me as well.

I don't care to see the Church destroyed and I don't care to harm people of good will. And I know there are people there of good will.

On the other hand I don't care to cover up the witholds of certain people in the the Church and I am glad people are coming out and teling the truth of the matter.

I am not sitting on the fence.

It's every man for himself.

I jumped ship and made my way up the bridge by myself, I'm almost done with it.

I took my matters in to my own hands.

Everyone here has taken their matters in to their own hands, maybe they didn't make the same choices, but that's O.K..

If I thought someone was going to burn down a Church would I stop them?

Yes. I would do that for my neighbor too.

Will I stand with the Church in a war?

No, I will not inherit their enemies. I didn't do it when I was involved and I will not do it now.

Will I go in protest marches against the Church or court trials or law suits?

No. I haven't inherited the Church as my enemy either.

I will only fight for Scotland.

T.O.

 

[nowout]

I'm out. However, I don't believe in thowing out the baby with the bathwater. There are some good - we all got in because there were some wins gotten. Still use data series, tone scale etc. as it is useful.

Don't want to keep the lies and destructive doo doo. So, any restructuring or perhaps starting from scratch would be the way to go.

 

[duddins]

Great Post Emma......

I have to agree with Alanzo as well....

I want to see the hatred for anything non-Scientology cease.

I would never want anything that is good in the church go down. But all this is good is deeply imbedded in the muck.

I want to see my friends united with their family again.

I am not on the fence.......

I never was an enemy to the church. They proclaimed me as such because I was tired of being hurt by the way our lives were being managed in the SO, and chose to leave.

I just want exposure of the truth behind the crimes of the church against their own people.

 

[anondc7777]

I realize I'm not the one you're addressing Emma, and I appreciate what you're doing for the ex-scis here, so I hope this can be taken in stride.

First, the church will never, ever, ever be "reformed." It is set up in such a way as to make any kind of change from within, except for from the top, utterly impossible. The mistrust, checks, counterchecks, audits (with a crude lie detector no less!) and general fear of the adherents absolutely prevents anything like this from happening, ever. EVER. Understand that. Ever.

Even thinking such a thing might cause someone in a middle-management position to fail their sec check and have to pay thousands of dollars for more sec check "auditing"? I am getting the impression that 99% of the time these folks, if they saw muscaviage himself shoot a child in the face, would manage to convince themselves they hadn't seen a thing.

Second, you've done the hard part, you've ...blown...I believe you call it. Now realize what the tech is, what the bridge is. It's a con. Plain and simple. It "works" because you think it works. Its silly and counterproductive. Take some yoga or tai-chi. You'll get the same benefits and a little exercise to boot. And get some counseling.

With respect,
anon

 

[Fancy]

I made my choice even thought I am out here fighting for the tech and some of the churchies metnal and spiritual health.

I am freezone and I always will be freezone. I guess I hope to free my friends from this cult that has altered the tech.

I think the anon is right and unless the church changes some of the policies it will not reform.

So the tech is the freezone now and not in the church and that is the future. If the church could change some of the policies and truly reform then I say it should survive but I doubt I will go back because of how I have been threated there. I am so use to abuse in my life I did not know I was being abused at times in the church but now I do know that I got some more abuse in my life there.

It is sad for me to say that the church should end as it is but it is the unvarnished truth no matter how I feel. I know Alanzo and some feel that and I understand that but unless they change policy for real then it is not going to happen. So postulate that truly will change policies.

Barb

 

[Good twin]

 

[Emma]

I realize I'm not the one you're addressing Emma, and I appreciate what you're doing for the ex-scis here, so I hope this can be taken in stride.

First, the church will never, ever, ever be "reformed." It is set up in such a way as to make any kind of change from within, except for from the top, utterly impossible. The mistrust, checks, counterchecks, audits (with a crude lie detector no less!) and general fear of the adherents absolutely prevents anything like this from happening, ever. EVER. Understand that. Ever.

Even thinking such a thing might cause someone in a middle-management position to fail their sec check and have to pay thousands of dollars for more sec check "auditing"? I am getting the impression that 99% of the time these folks, if they saw muscaviage himself shoot a child in the face, would manage to convince themselves they hadn't seen a thing.

Second, you've done the hard part, you've ...blown...I believe you call it. Now realize what the tech is, what the bridge is. It's a con. Plain and simple. It "works" because you think it works. Its silly and counterproductive. Take some yoga or tai-chi. You'll get the same benefits and a little exercise to boot. And get some counseling.

With respect,
anon

Hey anon,

I realise you're new around here and don't know me from Adam.

If you did you wouldn't have made that post.

My post was directed to those who, until right now, have not really decided where they sit in regards to Scientology. It was a warning I guess that if you want to fight for your so called "church", now is the time to do it.

As for me, I realised a long time ago what the "tech" really is.

And I prefer racquetball.

 

[Alanzo]

I realize I'm not the one you're addressing Emma, and I appreciate what you're doing for the ex-scis here, so I hope this can be taken in stride.

First, the church will never, ever, ever be "reformed." It is set up in such a way as to make any kind of change from within, except for from the top, utterly impossible. The mistrust, checks, counterchecks, audits (with a crude lie detector no less!) and general fear of the adherents absolutely prevents anything like this from happening, ever. EVER. Understand that. Ever.

How do you know?

Have you ever met a Scientology staff member?

You probably would be shocked to know that they believe in just about the same ideals as you do.

You aren't the only one who believes in freedom of speech and the rights of man. Most all Scientologists do, too, and they work for free and devote their whole lives to that ideal.

They put their actual lives on the line for it.

And you?

You write some posts and march in a protest or two?

You need to know who, exactly, you are fighting here.

That attitude you displayed above clearly shows you do not.

Even thinking such a thing might cause someone in a middle-management position to fail their sec check and have to pay thousands of dollars for more sec check "auditing"? I am getting the impression that 99% of the time these folks, if they saw muscaviage himself shoot a child in the face, would manage to convince themselves they hadn't seen a thing.

Maybe, if they were under enough pressure.

So would you, in the right situation and under the right circumstances.

These people are no different than you.

They are not animals.

Second, you've done the hard part, you've ...blown...I believe you call it. Now realize what the tech is, what the bridge is. It's a con. Plain and simple. It "works" because you think it works. Its silly and counterproductive. Take some yoga or tai-chi. You'll get the same benefits and a little exercise to boot. And get some counseling.

With respect,
anon

Nice respect, anon.

Actual respect would be knowing what the fuck you are talking about before you come in here and tell us all how it is.

So why don't you go back to where you came from and get a little?

 

[anondc7777]

And I prefer racquetball.

haha, fair enough.

I read a little too much into your conciliatory tone. Also, I wasn't addressing you specifically except for in the disclaimer. I try not to enturbulate the fzers too much but the more I read the more I just don't understand the people that realize that Scn is a con, but still think there's something to the "tech". That's not baby and bathwater; that's bathwater and bathwater. :wink2:

 

[anondc7777]

Have you ever met a Scientology staff member?

I shook arnie's hand on the 10th. That count?

Hey, I see that maybe I hit a little too close to home with that post, so I'll enturbulate elsewhere for the night.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Take some yoga or tai-chi. You'll get the same benefits and a little exercise to boot. And get some counseling.

With respect,
anon

I do yoga.It's great but it does not do what Scn tech does. Not the same thing. It's not aimed at the same things and it works differently.

And tai chi?Not even close. It's a good thing but it's good in other ways.

I think there are lots of things that help people and some of those things have somewhat similar effects,but it's not exactly the same at all. Scn and Dianetics purport to help people locate and confront past traumas. The processes have the objective in mind that the person will have one or more major realizations about himself and life. This isn't something you will find in every other ology, ism, self help thing,spiritual discipline, though it certainly isn't only found in Scn.

Scn processeshave specific questions designed to do the above. Now, whether or not this actually works or doesn't, is a matter of opinion. But my point is they aren't designed the same and aren't trying to do the same things and do not have the same effects all the time. But I think psychotherapy, yoga, spiritual disciplines, various things are terrific and people should probably do a lot more of these things.

 

[Free to shine]

Disclaimer - this is my personal opinion only.

Having been around since relatively early days, and experienced many, many aspects of the whole thing, I think the only way for Scientology to continue to exist is as what it really is - a business.

A business that is accountable, crystal clean and open in it's dealings from the top to the bottom.

You buy a service, (as you do now) and expect to receive exactly what you paid for. Money back guarantee.

All the other bullshit would have to go.

I was there when it was turned into a religion for tax and legal reasons. There was more honesty before that.

I have no interest in the Tech as I have found alternatives that allow me to be who I am. My reason for being here is to find healing and to understand the hidden indoctrination, which I continue to do every day, and to help others emerging from the consequences of the despicable crimes committed against them.


(Ducks for cover).

 

[Alanzo]

I shook arnie's hand on the 10th. That count?

No, it doesn't.

Hey, I see that maybe I hit a little too close to home with that post, so I'll enturbulate elsewhere for the night.

Go meet a Scientologist in a non-threatening environment. Find out if they eat their babies. Or rip the ears off kittens.

Then come back and let us know.