Total (Spiritual) Freedom

[NoName]

This is where I derail the thread to ask Hoaxie why my signature isn't showing up now that I saved it.....



Edit: Nevermind - it just showed on this one. Just not the stuff I'd already posted.

 

[Wants2Talk]

As I recall, TSF (total spiritual freedom) was defined/described/promoted as the freedom to play or not play any game on any dynamic.

 

[Free to shine]

Wanted to mention too, that I honestly was dumbfounded with alot of the posts that described situations in the Sea Org and Staff that were far worse than my own.. I thought I had it bad, but my experience was Nothing compared to many of you. YES, it made me ANGRY AS HELL.. and for a while I found myself YELLING MY HEAD OFF towards the ceiling at Ron, hoping somehow somewhere he could hear me and understand all the damage he had done.. It is so disturbing.. and I do feel for all the folks who went thru so much suppression and pain. I am honestly shocked and saddened beyond anything I could have imagined. DP

I am still shocked and saddened too, after a decade of reading the net. When you think it can't get any worse - it does. Just read the stories forum for a start.

The wonderful thing about ESMB is that there are so many who have travelled all the different roads, and there is usually someone around to help explain things. There is a lot of love here, as well as the pain. After all, we were trying to 'save the world' for the most part. If you want to know how scientology affects 4 generations of family, read my blog in my link. Despite the best intentions trying to strive for "total freedom" scientology produced a sticky web of false concepts, disconnection, lies, and a shattered family. It is an all too common story.

 

[GoNuclear]

...

Total Freedom?

Words.

That's all Hubbard and Scientology has. Words.

They sell words.

People use the words to stimulate their imaginations.

And mentally masturbate. The tech of Scientology is to get people to not be shy about doing that in public. After a while people get big grins while they are telling their fantasies at graduations and people smile and applaud when they demonstrate how good they are at mentally jerking off.

I'll take that a bit further ... if Scientology is mental masturbation, ESMB is about getting rid of the mental cum stain.

Pete

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

I'll take that a bit further ... if Scientology is mental masturbation, ESMB is about getting rid of the mental cum stain.

Pete

I'd hate to be a CSI investigator using a blacklight at the crime scene known as an Org where Scientologists have been having 60 years of theta Orgasms all over the place. At least the biological trace evidence appears "VGIs".

Forensic evidence detected on the
hand of a Sea Org Able-Bodied-Semen​

 

[UnifiedField]

I'm curious now about the 3rd Group.. seems like I have been mostly running into the 2nd Group Haven't actually seen ANYONE from the 1st Group.. I imagine the 2nd Group has pretty much run them out of Dodge LOLOL

I think those of us in the third group know that if we dared to say something - anything - positive about anything to do with Scientology we will get jumped on from all sides, accused of being gullible, hypnotised, deluded, mistaken or just plain WRONG.

UF

 

[Free to shine]

I think those of us in the third group know that if we dared to say something - anything - positive about anything to do with Scientology we will get jumped on from all sides, accused of being gullible, hypnotised, deluded, mistaken or just plain WRONG.

UF

Mostly it's not to 'make someone wrong' - it's a genuine desire to open eyes and show a different viewpoint. That is often very hard to do with people who cling to ingrained concepts that are full of thought stoppers. But hey, we keep trying.

 

[Panda Termint]

I just think of it as The Wall Of Ire.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

I think those of us in the third group know that if we dared to say something - anything - positive about anything to do with Scientology we will get jumped on from all sides, accused of being gullible, hypnotised, deluded, mistaken or just plain WRONG.

UF

I don't doubt that people would want to discuss positive points that are made and it can get heated, but that's to be expected under the circumstances.

I don't see anyone being 'jumped' on, apart from those that use ESMB as their personal playground for promoting themselves and their tek (and sometimes those that post strange things that sound insane) but even when they are challenged it doesn't stop them and they provide many opportunities for open dialogue and that can't be a bad thing.

I've said this many times but I really like to think that a scientologist lurking (or new here) may see us all speaking openly about scientology and the tek and start to think for themselves again and examine the way indoctrination was used (on them) and not just fall straight into a slightly different version of scientology because it's familiar and is available here.

Most adults don't need to live life by someone else's 'rules for living' and the freedom (mental, spiritual and sometimes physical) achieved immediately when it's all finally dumped ... is priceless.

It's so easy to forget what it feels like to be a scientologist carrying so much worry/stress and guilt around (planet saving!) but I will never forget the feeling I had the moment I decided to sling it all away and just be myself again and that 'win' has never diminished, unlike most of the enforced 'progress' I made on the bridge to absolutely nowhere.

 

[Gadfly]

I think those of us in the third group know that if we dared to say something - anything - positive about anything to do with Scientology we will get jumped on from all sides, accused of being gullible, hypnotised, deluded, mistaken or just plain WRONG.

UF

Well, if the shoe fits . . . . :confused2:

Only kidding.

I think that it requires BALANCE.

I have spoken in very positive terms about my experiences with auditing. And, with TRs. I have spoken about experiences with exteriorization. I don't usually get jumped all over.

But then, also, I do have fairly decent credentials as a person who does spot and discuss the nastier and more disreputable aspects of Hubbard & Scientology.

I think it takes what Hubbard called differentiation (a concept Hubbard directly STOLE and then alter-ised in the Data Series - from the studies of General Semantics - Korzybski).

Now, there are some here who will jump on anything positive that anyone says about any aspect of the subject or practices of Scientology. Personally, I think they are as flawed in their views and comments as the total gung-ho 100% hyper-enthusiastic true believers of the opposite variety in the Church of Scientology.

I find people who slot everything into one little cubby hole to be . . . . somewhat boring. In either direction.

What most people have had their own difficulties with, in almost EVERY case, involves the organized Church of Scientology. Now, people get a bit heated when someone comes here and tries to paint a picture that Hubbard was all popsicles and candy, and that his "good vision" has been wholly distorted and sabotaged by David Miscavige.

There is a direct relationship between the subject materials and the behaviors of the Church of Scientology and Scientologists. For instance, SP declares and disconnection exists BOTH because 1) Hubbard wrote exact policies about it, and 2) EVERY version of the Church of Scientology since the beginning has APPLIED these policies. But then, OTHER policies or ideas within the subject of Scientology are NOT often applied, though people will talk about these ideas as "good things". Such as:

1. Scientology believes and promotes free speech.

2. Scientology is making a better world.

3. Scientology supports all human rights.

If you want to talk with others of similar interest about the values of auditing, then go to the proper section and talk there. But, if someone comes onto a thread that is totally trashing Hubbard, and then one starts heralding the wonders of all things Hubbard, well, what would you expect?

Many people have been sucked in, used, and tossed away as garbage by the Church of Scientology. It has a history of wasting people. People often get angry with the Church of Scientology because it IS an abusive organization, and it is abusive largely due to dedicated people exactly following exact LRH policies, programs, orders and advices. The evil, if one wants to call it that, exists right there in the subject materials themselves. And since the mindset in Scientology is to APPLY ALL LRH EXACTLY, there is only one possible outcome if one follows that strict rule.

Various people do have a tendency to lump things all together. They do that here at times too. For example, when a person has been forcefully separated from their children, and hasn't spoken to them in 10 or 20 years, as routinely happens in the Church of Scientology, one can err on the side of lumping THAT bad experience with ALL of Scientology. That is a reverse of what often happens when a person is involved, gets some great experiences with auditing, and then falsely and mistakenly equates those great experiences with all the REST of Hubbard & Scientology. Both are flawed views. Both involve an incorrect identification of dissimilar things (A=A=A).

Some people also make the HUGE mistake of speaking largely in abstractions and generalities, such as:

Scientology has been shown to help many people when carefully applied outside of the Church of Scientology.

Mark Baker says shit like this all of the time, and while it MAY be true, he usually fails to provide ANY specifics that might support the claim or proposition. A general statement or rule MAY be true, but an intelligent person includes the SPECIFICS that would show the general claim to be true. People who spout generalities tend to get jumped on. Provide details and specifics, based on YOUR OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCES. People might not agree or like it, but most here on ESMB do feel that others have a right to have their own view (a thing that was very much denied to them while involved with the Church of Scientology).

What is here are simply words on a computer screen. Anyone who gets all riled up about it needs some therapy (or auditing) to stop reacting so severely to what are just ideas spoken by characters on an Internet discussion board.

Also, there is SOME of this going on with Scientology where people ARE gullible, hypnotized, deluded, mistaken and just plain WRONG! It is what it is.

A person and group that attempts to frame innocent people in crimes they never committed (specific: Paulette Cooper), because they believe themselves to hold the ONLY VALID WORKABLE KEYS to Man's freedom and salvation in the entire Universe (specifics: KSW and related "data") ARE FUCKING NUTBAGS!

And, they deserve to be jumped on.

 

[Bill]

I think those of us in the third group know that if we dared to say something - anything - positive about anything to do with Scientology we will get jumped on from all sides, accused of being gullible, hypnotised, deluded, mistaken or just plain WRONG.

UF

That's part of it but pretty minor. I've stated that some lower level Scientology things seem to have a beneficial effect on some people without a dogpile.

The problem I have is that there are two types of "benefits" from Scientology.
1. Actual benefits. Many people, when tech "X" is applied, experience some form of the promised and expected benefits. These bits of "tech" are few and exist only at the lower-levels of Scientology -- to better recruit people.
2. Belief benefits. Just about all Scientology believers experience this type of "benefit". They believe they get benefits or they believe that any improvement they experience was "caused by Scientology'. These "benefits" are not directly associated with any process "X", they are not consistent, predictable nor common. These would be most accurately describe as the "placebo effect" of belief.

So, my problem is that, if I say some of Scientology provides some benefit to some people, I'm afraid others may think I'm endorsing the validity of belief benefits.

I want to make sure that non-Scientologists do not get the impression that the belief benefits are actual results from Scientology and, therefore, become trapped in the cult.

So I err on the side of saying that Scientology does not deliver the promised benefits even if some minor lower-level "tech" might.

Bill

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

I don't doubt that people would want to discuss positive points that are made and it can get heated, but that's to be expected under the circumstances.

I don't see anyone being 'jumped' on, apart from those that use ESMB as their personal playground for promoting themselves and their tek (and sometimes those that post strange things that sound insane) but even when they are challenged it doesn't stop them and they provide many opportunities for open dialogue and that can't be a bad thing.

I've said this many times but I really like to think that a scientologist lurking (or new here) may see us all speaking openly about scientology and the tek and start to think for themselves again and examine the way indoctrination was used (on them) and not just fall straight into a slightly different version of scientology because it's familiar and is available here.

Most adults don't need to live life by someone else's 'rules for living' and the freedom (mental, spiritual and sometimes physical) achieved immediately when it's all finally dumped ... is priceless.

It's so easy to forget what it feels like to be a scientologist carrying so much worry/stress and guilt around (planet saving!) but I will never forget the feeling I had the moment I decided to sling it all away and just be myself again and that 'win' has never diminished, unlike most of the enforced 'progress' I made on the bridge to absolutely nowhere.

"Most adults don't need to live life by someone else's 'rules for living'....."
That made me think of the unpardonable sin that an adult Scientologist could ever make up their own rules, codes or policies. For a Scientologist, that would be an unthinkable thought. They would never conceive of giving Ron advice, it's only a one-way street. They don't feel qualified to have their own opinion, and since the fantasy, theoretical perfect OT is drilled into them so often and long--they are constantly on an introverted self-correction. In Scientology you simply can never been good enough.


what it feels like to be a scientologist carrying so much worry/stress and guilt around (planet saving!)
That was in my top 3 BlowCogs. That I am not a planet saver, nor a sector salvager.
What a monumental relief! The sheer stupidity of it is absurd.

 

[NoName]

I think those of us in the third group know that if we dared to say something - anything - positive about anything to do with Scientology we will get jumped on from all sides, accused of being gullible, hypnotised, deluded, mistaken or just plain WRONG.

UF

I don't entirely agree with that. I have very little positive to say about LRH, Dn, or Scn, but I don't want to attack or invalidate other people's perceived wins. I absolutely believe that people have wins - especially with the early stuff. What I think is counter productive is the "la-la-la-I can't hear you la-la-la-Scno doesn't have any wins la-la-la-you're brainwashed if you think you had them." When people do that, it's as bad as the still-in thought stopping we sometimes see.

Of course, my signature line sums up how I feel about even the wins.

 

[Dilpickle]

I think those of us in the third group know that if we dared to say something - anything - positive about anything to do with Scientology we will get jumped on from all sides, accused of being gullible, hypnotised, deluded, mistaken or just plain WRONG.

UF

I know that now too Still.. I am persistent.. I don't mind so much getting jumped on or told that I am wrong.. I am after TRUTH, and if I don't have it, it is OK with me if someone points it out to me in a clear concise way that changes my mind about something. I suspected Ron was up to no good all along.. however, after being here a short while, I see it was MUCH WORSE than I ever dreamed. A real Wake Up for me.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

... Most adults don't need to live life by someone else's 'rules for living' ...

Possibly nice if it were true, ITYIWT, but as written definitely not true.

Ten Commandments

The Golden Rule

Confucian Morality

...

What Your Mother Told You ...


Mark A. Baker

 

[Idle Morgue]

One problem with people who are heavily into relating to people via the machinations of Scientology, is that they very often come over as being inauthentic and insincere - which is a pity, because underneath all that machinery they might well actually be sincere. Lol.

I agree - and getting rid of the LOADED LINGO will help us all see the real you - I hate the lingo and I will not use it unless I am making fun of how stupid Scientology and L Ron Hubbard are!

 

[Wants2Talk]

The truth has personality.

 

[Idle Morgue]

this I do not understand. I read bills post and it was what he thought. would it not be up to me weather I was effect or not. I can read it and laugh out loud or I can think on what they were trying to communicate. It is up to me if I become effect of it or not.

seems like there is a clique inside of the ESMB clique that feels the need to tell people what they are and how they need to be acting or not acting according to their expectations. what about if we just take people for what they say and who they are.

I know there are much better people then I on this board, but we all have our own road that we must travel. I know that I would not like some one telling me how to move along my path or telling me how my last few steps we foolish or somehow incorrect.

I would like to see a little more tollerence toward oneanother. we don't all have to hold hands and sing. How about exercising a little more reciprocity.

let the flaming begin. that is your right and I will do my best to understand how and why it makes people feel better about themselves acting like this.

Hi Exsomessenger ~ Maybe I am getting it. I'm working on it. I came into this group all full of Gung Ho Scientology Tech... and used Scientology terms, and used it all as a way to communicate.. and alienated alot of people by doing so, as I was exactly the thing they had rejected.. Some of them were friendly and offered advice, some jumped all over me attacking from every possible angle, some made fun of me, some gave me things to look up, some probably even agreed with me.. The point of it all is, I am thinking, that we just are who we are.. and by being real and honest concerning where we are NOW, we open ourselves up to all kinds of Love, Attack, Help, Hate, etc.. and we just need to get on with it and not be afraid to be whoever we are wherever we are in this game of life. We just need to be REAL.. express ourselves without thinking too much about it.. open up and see what happens. Deal with it. Enjoy it. Relish the freedom it gives us just to be ourselves. I'm not angry with anyone.. although there are a couple of folks I'd like to whack around a bit myself.. however.. for the most part, I have to admit I'm having FUN and learning alot.

Dil...I am feeling you now. You are sincerly trying to talk to the ex'es on this message board and have some good conversations about Scientology. I think you are picking up now that this is an Ex Scientology Message Board - so it would be like me going on RTC's website and trying to have a nice talk about Scientology and pointing out the flaws - not the appropriate arena and I would have some ARCX and possibly get even declared, tarred, feathered, covered and smothered!

Can you sort of see why trying to discuss the "benefits" of ARC and other loaded Scientologese lingo gets people fired up?

As for me and my house - I hate everything about Scientology - it destroyed people I cared about - suicide, cancer, bankruptcy and psychosis - I saw it all.

Scientology is not meant to help anyone - that little bit of help you get is all intended to keep you coming back for more - spending more money - spending your entire life chasing the carrot. If it worked - it would have worked by now. It is not intended to free anyone - it is intended to inslave and destroy! Look at the stats of Scientology - see any help being done out there? I personally do not!

 

[Wants2Talk]

I think we need to help him find a new lingo [or the old original lingo].

 

[Idle Morgue]

I would add, that in my own MANY years of experience with Scientology and Scientologists, it and they were some of the COLDEST people I have ever come across. And, the temperature decreased proportionally as one climbed higher up the command channels.

When one gets onto staff, and especially into the realm of Sea Org staff, they begin to be quite heartless. And, when getting into the realm of the CMO, RTC and other INT management levels, this aspect of "love" became entirely non-existent. Duty, dedication and allegiance to the Scientology CAUSE squashed whatever "love" any person might have originally had in their hearts.

It is basic admin policy, part of the Staff Statuses, to study and apply this Hubbard notion:

We are not trying to make good boys and girls. We would rather have you dead than ineffective. We want you effective - NOT NICE!

Of course, keep going up the command channels and where does one end up at? With Hubbard. The coldest and the most heartless of all.

In Scientology people like you only when you agree with them. Affinity goes down fast the moment that you disagree with anything about Scientology or Hubbard.

I see the clique-like nature of Scientology hyper-enthusiasm as an example of the IDIOCY of the application of ARC.

Communicate the same ideas - agree, agree, agree - mutual love-bombing

THAT is what goes on in the world of Scientology, and it is nothing other than a version of ARC pushed to a ridiculous limit.

Basing affinity and likingness on who or what agrees with you is so horribly shallow. But that is Hubbard and Scientology.

There are levels of empathy, compassion, love and understanding that have NOTHING at all to do with Hubbard's simple little notions of ARC.

You are SPOT ON!