BardoThodol
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Zoomomba?
Whooomamba?
[video=youtube;3K8miHwWdOU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K8miHwWdOU[/video]
Zoomomba?
I'm not sure if you're taking the piss or asking a genuine question about Godwin's Law. As it happens, Godwin's Law makes no judgdement about whether or not the comparison is valid, it only records the fact that at some stage an online conversation will involve such a comparison. Godwin's Law is not a stricture and nor is it a perjorative term; it is just an observation, technically speaking. The validity of the comparison is really a matter for those involved in the discussion to dertmine. Such matters to consider might include whether the Nazi reference is some sort of attempted trolling or derail or ad hom etc, etc. In my limited experience of online conversation, its usually pretty easy for site regulars to see what's what quite quickly. In this instance I suspect the Indie OSA crew are out and about actively spreading the "David Miscavige = Adolph Hitler" meme in an effort to implant that "reality" within the Scientology discussion. The more accurate comparision (which would also invoke Godwin's Law) would be "Scientology = Fascism". A devolution of the comparison down to individualities seems to miss the wider point, IMNSHO.
Many people visit here! It's a war zone. LOL
I'm not sure if you're taking the piss or asking a genuine question about Godwin's Law. As it happens, Godwin's Law makes no judgdement about whether or not the comparison is valid, it only records the fact that at some stage an online conversation will involve such a comparison. Godwin's Law is not a stricture and nor is it a perjorative term; it is just an observation, technically speaking. The validity of the comparison is really a matter for those involved in the discussion to dertmine. Such matters to consider might include whether the Nazi reference is some sort of attempted trolling or derail or ad hom etc, etc. In my limited experience of online conversation, its usually pretty easy for site regulars to see what's what quite quickly. In this instance I suspect the Indie OSA crew are out and about actively spreading the "David Miscavige = Adolph Hitler" meme in an effort to implant that "reality" within the Scientology discussion. The more accurate comparision (which would also invoke Godwin's Law) would be "Scientology = Fascism". A devolution of the comparison down to individualities seems to miss the wider point, IMNSHO.
I think comparing Scientologists to Nazis is a valid comparison - to a certain extent. But are these similarities between them more significant than their similarities to other totalitarian groups? I don't think so. Nazis are just the easiest, most well-known comparison internationally available, that's all.
So what is it that all these totalitarian groups have in common?
- A "visionary madman" leader, or on rare occasions a small group thereof.
- A strictly enforced set of rules everyone has to live by.
- An equally strictly enforced set of beliefs, usually created by their Leader(s).
- A "self-correcting" group of devout followers who make sure that nobody gets out of line.
- One or more enemies or threats which need to be fought.
There are probably a few more points to list, but I'm not a sociologist.
Whether it is/was Hitler-Jugend kids ratting out their parents, or (going back a few decades with this one) young upright citizens of the GDR getting their parents/neighbors/schoolmates into jail for "incorrect thoughts", or devout fanatical Christians making sure everyone lives by "Gods" rules, or Scientologists writing KRs on each other....
Where's the difference?
I think comparing Scientologists to Nazis is a valid comparison - to a certain extent. But are these similarities between them more significant than their similarities to other totalitarian groups? I don't think so. Nazis are just the easiest, most well-known comparison internationally available, that's all.
So what is it that all these totalitarian groups have in common?
- A "visionary madman" leader, or on rare occasions a small group thereof.
- A strictly enforced set of rules everyone has to live by.
- An equally strictly enforced set of beliefs, usually created by their Leader(s).
- A "self-correcting" group of devout followers who make sure that nobody gets out of line.
- One or more enemies or threats which need to be fought.
There are probably a few more points to list, but I'm not a sociologist.
Whether it is/was Hitler-Jugend kids ratting out their parents, or (going back a few decades with this one) young upright citizens of the GDR getting their parents/neighbors/schoolmates into jail for "incorrect thoughts", or devout fanatical Christians making sure everyone lives by "Gods" rules, or Scientologists writing KRs on each other....
Where's the difference?
I also like the ßßßß. It is easy to find on my keyboard, because as a native English speaker working in Germany, I felt I had to have a German keyboard. My German colleagues almost all have US keyboards, so they can use familiar keyboard macros. So I the Ausländer send e-mails with Viele Grüße, and get Viele Gruesse back.
I think comparing Scientologists to Nazis is a valid comparison - to a certain extent. But are these similarities between them more significant than their similarities to other totalitarian groups? I don't think so. Nazis are just the easiest, most well-known comparison internationally available, that's all.
So what is it that all these totalitarian groups have in common?
- A "visionary madman" leader, or on rare occasions a small group thereof.
- A strictly enforced set of rules everyone has to live by.
- An equally strictly enforced set of beliefs, usually created by their Leader(s).
- A "self-correcting" group of devout followers who make sure that nobody gets out of line.
- One or more enemies or threats which need to be fought.
There are probably a few more points to list, but I'm not a sociologist.
Whether it is/was Hitler-Jugend kids ratting out their parents, or (going back a few decades with this one) young upright citizens of the GDR getting their parents/neighbors/schoolmates into jail for "incorrect thoughts", or devout fanatical Christians making sure everyone lives by "Gods" rules, or Scientologists writing KRs on each other....
Where's the difference?
The difference between the 3. Reich, GDR and Scientology are, the people that are "infiltrated"... It were whole states, with critics inside etc. Scientology is a small group in a "normal" state/world, but they want to get a worl wide state.
Imo there isn't a big difference between other "Cults" and Scientology in the mind controlling way. All want to bring their believes in the world, all are treating their members evil, the most are having a disconnection policy... But Scientology goes the way to infiltrate, even on a criminal way, other states. Eg Jehovas Whitnesses are having the "same" structures as Scientology, but they aren't dangerous for the life of their members. As I know, they don't have RPFs or something like this. They are not having a secret service etc. I believe the treatment of critics (inside and outside) is the difference.
Ah, as a wise man once said " When you limit the world to your own knowledge it does indeed become a small place ", but, nevermind, on to the points...
Are you really presenting that the depth of what scientologists & scientology ) do is " writing KR's on each other " ?
If you honestly believe that ( which I seriously seriously doubt ) then no wonder you can post " Where's the difference"?
But, some people do come here and post honestly... and some just can't.
Well, carry on.
Speaking of political shenanigans: Did you know that Angela Merkel was chief secretary of the Freie Deutsche Jugend (FDJ) in her GDR days?
Have I said something different.Group size is the only difference I see. They all work(ed) on manipulation, infiltration and group enforcement.
See above.You think the annual "Festival der Jugend" in Dortmund was just the GDR advertising a bit? No, there was quite a bit of manipulation, infiltration, group enforcement going on plus a few political shenanigans.
Speaking of political shenanigans: Did you know that Angela Merkel was chief secretary of the Freie Deutsche Jugend (FDJ) in her GDR days?
Yep, I know and that is one reason why I support the Exs from the JWs on my blog sometimes. :wink2:No, JWs don't have the RPF - they have extra sessions in the "Königreichssaal" instead. Big difference, eh? About JWs not being dangerous for the lives of their members... I beg to differ.
One former classmate of mine was almost beaten to death by his father, just because he had the audacity to be friends with me.
There may be some gradual differences in the details, but in the grand scheme of things, all totalitarian groups are the same, IMO.
That doesn't automatically make her a bad person. One could not take any position of responsibility behind the former Iron Curtain without belonging to such organizations. I am friends with people who were "under the radar" but still officially card-carrying Communists back in the day.
I, myself, was briefly a member of Komsomol - the Communist Union of Youth.
I was also, until the religious nutcases and psychotic billionaire fans of Ayn Rand took over, a member of the Republican Party.
Having been both and not being a Russian immigrant has to make a bit of an odd duck in the US, but it does not mean I do or ever did totally agree with either organization.
Have I said something different.
See above.
I have heard about it.
Yep, I know and that is one reason why I support the Exs from the JWs on my blog sometimes. :wink2:
Since ca. 1 year I know this, since I met other Exes from other Cults... But it exists a reason why Scientology gets observed by the secret service (like the Nazis) in Germany and not the eg JWs and this is imo the criminal way to infiltrade the world. If you are saying they are similar to the eg JWs (nur im Infiltrieren, sonst ist es ähnliche Kacke), they would get a "Religion" in Germany, like the JWs got in some parts of Germany.
I see your point. It's just that I think that rising to the top position of one ideology and then dropping all and rising up to another top position in another organization and supporting a completely different set of ideas is ... ugh, how do I say it? I guess it's a form of ideological prostitution. Not unlike Miscavige dropping his current position in the cult and becoming the president of the International Association of Psychiatrists instead, if you so will.
In other words: I think there's a difference between just "being a member" and "rising to the top".
...and I know what the "Hitler Gruß" is, it is forbidden in Germany. So if the Scientologists would do this in Germany, they are doing a crime and I am 99% sure that not one German Scientologist would make the "Hitler Gruß" to DM.
True, which is why I see a difference between M&M and other Exes on this board in terms of their responsibility for the bad stuff.
But Merckel was in the GDR equivalent of Komsomol.
I remember sitting in a dorm in Moscow in the summer of 1990. My roommate, the General Secretary of our branch of Komsomol was talking to one of his members. This younger guy wanted to get a job in the defense industry, and thought that joining the Party (at age 20) would give him a leg up. Oleg, who keep in mind was a regional leader of Komsomol, kept trying to tell him that the Party was not long for this world, and joining it would be a black mark on his record throughout his whole life. So, even in the USSR, officers of Komsomol did not see that organization as an arm of the Party, and did not see membership in the Youth Org as being part of a path to membership in the Party. Maybe it was different in the GDR, but that's the angle I'm coming from.
Oleg never did join the Party and went on to join the armed groups supporting Yeltsin when the Red Army threatened the Byelyi Dom in August 1991. Yet he was one of the leaders of Komsomol in 1990.
But Merckel was in the GDR equivalent of Komsomol.
I've always lived in the Western part of Germany, so I have no personal experience to draw from regarding life in the GDR. What I have though, are many conversations with former GDR-citizens. They basically all told me: "If you wanted to get a job, if you wanted to get anywhere in life, you'd better join the FDJ, unless you're old enough to join the SED.
That's the information I have and it comes not only from people I've met after the re-unification of East- and West-Germany, but also from people who had (attempted to) jump the fence, did some significant jail time for that and later were "bought out" by the other side of that fence.