A Scientologist Speaks!!!

Discussion in 'Scientology-related Videos' started by sandygirl, May 26, 2008.

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  1. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    Like I said, CofS looooves kids as long as they don't have to take care of them.

    (negative statement. About CofS. And kids. Its attitude toward...)
  2. Free to shine

    Free to shine Shiny & Free

    For the third time....

    You are saying that it is inaccurate and irresponsible that there is an implication that all CofS members are pushed to have abortions.

    I haven't seen such an implication. "All members" has never come into any discussion I have seen. I am however stating that it is NOT just Sea Org who are pushed this way. It happened to me, it happened to others I knew. I ran a Scio school and I saw many things, which of course I am not going to get specific about at this point.

    Then you make the statement that "Actually, CofS looooves kids as long as they don't have to take care of them. "Public" and non Sea Org Scn'ists tend to have good sized families."

    That may have been meant as sarcastic, but it didn't come across that way.

    I apologise for being pedantic but your original post as it stood seems to be pushing all the bad stuff into the "Sea Org Box" when it really isn't so. There are many "public" and non Sea Org who have had terrible experiences as a family, who have been encouraged to have abortions so that their own Bridge will not be delayed and have suffered terribly trying to raise a family while being on NON SO staff. At one point I think I was the only person amongst my group of friends who has NOT had an abortion, and most were public!

    It can't be swept under the rug by saying it is all the Sea Org's fault. The attitude Scientology - as a whole - has towards children is vastly different from the supposed aims. It ruined my whole family Fluffy and coloured my life for nearly 40 years. It is not something to be dismissed lightly.

    Do you see what I am saying and why I might have reacted to your post that way?
  3. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    Here's the comment to which I referred. I really should have quoted it in my post to begin with. I'm sure that would have been best.

    I objected to the wording to an extent and I've said why.

    I am not sweeping anything under the rug. I'm totally happy- ecstatic, even- to admit that CofS fucks up families. Really. I'd put it up on a billboard if it didn't cost so much money.

    In my statement: "Actually, CofS looooves kids as long as they don't have to take care of them." there are two uncomplimentary elements and given the brevity of this statement, that's a lot. One is the spelling of "loves". I spelled it looooves... This was not an accident. Saying that someone or something loves kids AS LONG AS THEY DON'T HAVE TO TAKE CARE OF THEM is lightyears from complimentary. I bet if one were to say of some parents, "Joni/Kitty/Sam/Donald/Phil loves kids as long as (s)he doesn't have to take care of them" that this would engender recriminations and possibly a punch in the nose from Joni, Kitty, Sam, Donald or Phil.
  4. Good twin

    Good twin Floater

    For the record: Twice I had abortions while a Scientologist. I was never in the Sea Org. If I had not had the abortions it could have resulted in a PR flap for the church. It would have diverted energy away from the greater good of Clearing the planet. No one told me I had to have an abortion. It just was obvious that a child didn't fit on the admin scale I was operating on. Not one Scientologists questioned my decision or offered the possibility of any other choice. I realize now that any other church would have at least offered other possibilities. It's NOT just a Sea Org thing.
  5. duddins

    duddins Patron Meritorious

    This makes so much sense Goodtwin. Because, if abortion is dictated as a solution at the upper levels in the church it would only be logical that this would then be acceptable at org and public levels to resolve similar potential diversions from clearing the planet.

    I find this to be very sad.

    Back in the early 70s when I read it, Dianetics hit home with me because it talked about pain being fundimental to causing abberative behavior. The sections on life in the womb impressed me deeply. His descriptions of how a child in the womb experiences everything. I knew this to be true, in my heart.

    I still believe this.

    I have strong feelings about abortion.

    No judgement whatsoever Goodtwin and anyone else out there reading this...........I am in no place to judge anyone. I know that child bearing is not the same experience for everyone. But the idea pains me.

    The distorted C of S view of what is truly important in this world makes me sick.

    Goodtwin, I hope to think that I would have wanted to help you come up with some other solutions had I known you then.

    I dont think I ever could have pushed anyone in the direction of abortion. It is good that I blew from the SO when I did.

    Shame on them (whoever they were) for not helping you work things out.

    Thank you so much for telling us this.

  6. sandygirl

    sandygirl Silver Meritorious Patron

    Quote from Good Twin:

    UNF***ING BELIEVABLE!!!!!:omg: :omg:

    Let me guess...... could it have been someone who agreed to not have a family this lifetime and signed a contract???

    It amazed me how these SO guys were ALL child care experts!!!!!!

    So frigging sickening. At least the poligomists WANT their kids back!!!!
  7. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    I knew non SO Scn'ists who had abortions, too, but then again, that's not what I was talking about. I've also seen non Scn'ists have abortions for somewhat similar reasons to ones you are discussing- even married ones. It's not good no matter where it happens.

    It always seemed a whole lot less common outside the SO, though. I saw a lot of staff members and public have a lot of babies. I also saw that having an abortion is supposed to be an item on one of the sec checks, thus showing it to be frowned upon.

    However, when you're staff (public,too, actually) , even if it's at a Class V Org, the cult's needs always are put first. No matter what someone's situation is. I never implied otherwise.

    That's the crux of the matter- that CofS is a place where the needs of the cult are put first and all those people to wom they promised salvation (my wording, not theirs)and all this, those people take a back seat to the needs- real or imagined- of the cult.

    I've always said this, I always will say this, and I do not appreciate the posts yesterday implying that I'm trying to minimize anything or sweep anything under the rug or blame everything on the SO.

    I've said many times that CofS is not a viable organization and that it should go away.

    I know that it's not good for families. I've probably posted more about that than many on this board.

    My participation in this particular discussion is over. I'm truly disgusted right now and not just with CofS.
  8. Ladybird

    Ladybird Silver Meritorious Patron

    I rarely heard about abortions when I was in the Sea Org, it was very hush-hush and people were not supposed to "enturbulate" others by talking about it. I was comm-eved over it.

    It wasn't until I was out and got on the Internet that I found out the truth about number of abortions in the Sea Org. Mary Taboyanon's affidavit has only recently been backed up by so many of the ex-Sea Org coming forward and sharing their own horrific and painful stories.

    I guess I must be misunderstanding what you mean by that statement Fluffy.
  9. Free to shine

    Free to shine Shiny & Free

    I don't think there is any point asking for clarification as Fluffy appears to have fled the thread in a ruffle of indignant fluff. Though how one comes to the conclusion one is misquoted when the original post is quoted is beyond me. :duh:

    This is a serious and painful subject that affects many people and I really can't stand the "it's them over there that dun it, but normal Scientologists are fine" attitude, which is how it read quite a few posts back.
  10. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    Oh dear lord, against my better judgment, I'm back.

    You lucky lucky people. :coolwink:

    In the first place, I did not say that you misquoted me, FTS. I said that you misinterpreted what I said. And I explained why and how.

    My comment about being misquoted was in the chatbox and was not directed to you.

    I do not in any way think that life in CofS outside the Sea Org is a basket of roses or that abuses never take place.

    I repeatedly said that I think CofS is a non viable organization and that it's abusive. Many of the accounts of abuses are things written by former public and Mission and Org staff. I know this. I even experienced a bit as mission staff though if you ask me, it pales in comparison with what others went through. Still, it was abusive and it wasn't in the SO. When I walked down the halls of the AOLA complex, I was somewhere where the reges were, or maybe it was over at LA Day, anyway, I could hear reg after reg after reg exhorting people to mortgage family homes- some of which didn't even belong to the target- oops, I mean public to whom they were talking. The GO OT This year travelling sideshow is predicated almost completely on "mortgage Mom's house!" I think this is abusive. I think the constant loan arranging- which I saw a lot of and I was one of the people who lent money- is wrong and terrible. I think disconnections- which happen on EVERY LEVEL OF THE ENTIRE CHURCH (cult) are terrible.

    I do not in any way think that the SO has a patent or exclusivity on abuses in CofS. I never thought that and I never said it and I didn't imply it.

    And, Free to Shine, you certainly cannot say that you were quoting me about that attitude, because I neither wrote or implied it. But I am willing to concede that you thought (even though this is my third post, I think, where I've said otherwise) that I thought CofS' abuses are mainly in the SO. Now, why you'd keep saying that after I already wrote two other posts saying I didn't think that, I really don't know. But hopefully now, this post clarifies things, no pun intended.

    As to leaving the thread, well, you know what? I can start and stop any conversation I like. In the past, I've had people tell me I reply back too much. Then it's some kind of "fleeing" when I decide not to.So, clearly, I cannot please all the people all the time. Today just isn't some people's day and tomorrow doesn't look promising, either.
  11. free1996

    free1996 Patron with Honors

    I made the quote

    Abortions were done in the SO and to Scientology public if it got in your way of you going up the bridge or if it got in your way of life as a scientologist. In the Sea Org, if you didn't want to be busted down to a class 5 org..then you better take care of "it". And for others, if you worked uplines; their wasn't a choice. In a earlier post I made. My mom got abortion once in PAC so she wouldn't be busted down and then when she went uplines, she didn't have a choice to keep the baby. And the nice DM even paid her a visit to see if she was "ok" after!!!

    I mostly was on post in PAC and knew numberous staff and sea org members who got abortions. At the time, I felt it was good to do if it got in your way of life or duty. Now as a mother of 3, I'm sickend by my old way of thinking. And after many years, my mom came out to see my first son who was a month old (now 9yrs old) and started crying. She told me she really didn't have a miscarriage in her 6 month of pregnancy, that she really had an abortion!! She told me even the doctor was unsympathic to her. Probley because it was gross out-ethics and gave the doctor a bad taste in his mouth for Scientology.
    Who is at fault? The mother. She could have used condoms or birth control. Or told her husband not intil they use protection. It's not like we were living in the 60's with "Free love" Or used her paycheck to go to Planned Parenthood. My mom later got a IUD that caused her miserable pains. I think later Sea Org members started getting birth control as abortions were becoming less and less in the 90's. And staff and SO were not being busted down to Class 5 orgs as much. Well great!! They got on the wagon!!!
  12. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    I've always thought and noticed that anything other than going up the bridge (or working your ass off, if staff) is considered totally counter to what they want to see in CofS.

    I've known people in CofS who had real family problems, poor nutrition, hideous living conditions- and they weren't SO.

    Anytime anyone is living in a milieu where the members aren't valued in any way except as resources to be exploited then these things happen constantly.
  13. sandygirl

    sandygirl Silver Meritorious Patron

    Quote from Fluffy:

    That is so true. It was one of my biggest complaints. How could any group which claims to "improve" life have it biggest practioners(sp?) living in horrible conditions. The "it's just mest" excuse never rang true to me!!!!

    Of course, none of the above applies if you are a Scientology Celeb!!!Then go ahead and have a $3 million:omg: :omg: wedding with your illegitimate daughter as the star!!!
  14. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    So true, Sandygirl. I don't see that membership does improve life. But what really pisses me off is that improving life, improving abilities, handling stuff, that's what's used to reg newbies. So it's a lie.

    I saw some nice people when I was in, and I saw some people trying to help others in CofS, but always seemed to be in SPITE of CofS, not because of it.

    As staff, my fellow staff members and I were literally enslaved and verbally abused. People had malnutrition. I was sexually harassed and got a sort of version of the "sorry up statistic" thing when I tried to go through channels to do something about it. As public, it was only ok when the person pushed back and refused to entertain various stupid stupid suggestions. Well, you shouldn't have to push back or resist your church because your church shouldn't be giving you crappy advice and constant pressure.

    I knew a guy- and for all I know he's still there- a really really nice guy. He wanted to join staff. He had a decent job and a house. Well, the job took too much time, so that had to go.He quit. Too much of a commute, so house got sold. He ended up with just apartment and no good job at all. I guess is one was doing that to join a monastery or something, some place where they don't treat the person like crap after promising them the moon, then it might be ok. But the thing is, people on staff always get fucked with. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. Then one is left with the fact that one quit/moved/sold house to go somewhere to be abused and worked to death.