ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at www.exscn2.net.



A Thumb Nail Sketch of L Ron Hubbard

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by lkwdblds, Jul 26, 2010.

View Users: View Users
  1. fisherman

    fisherman Patron with Honors

    We got home with our puppy today! We had fantastic overnight trip to a beautiful part of Maine

    Lakey, the first time I used "Lake" as an endearmnet was a long while back! I often give friendly nicknames to my close irl friends, but would never be so casual with an acquaintance. I do talk to close friends about the topics we cover on ESMB, but would never discuss religion or philosophy with an acquaintance. That's an interesting snapshot of Internet sociology. So, while we're really only acquainted, I'm happy to consider it a rather friendly acquaintance!

    Judaism/Christianity:

    Lake wrote,

    Saint Augustine believed this and he was no slouch as a Christian!

    Enlightenment Christians, including most of the founding fathers basically shared this view. For them, God was the great clockmaker who set things in motion and then stepped out of the picture. Many rejected Jesus' divinity and those who maintained belief in the trinity considered Christ's actions something that happened way in the past. They were seen as part of God's clock-making apparatus. Few to none thought of Jesus as immediately available, the way evangelicals do today. Jesus was the savior, because he fulfilled the clock-making, he was not considered a personal friend to be called upon.

    But more to your point, the gnostic impulse you describe had enormous prominence in Christianity at various times. To the extent that Jesus was viewed as a second Buddha. These gnostic elements were the reason for the Inquistion. Heretical ideas had become so prominent in the monastic orders that the Catholic church felt the need to root them out. And this, of course, gave rise to Martin Luther.

    My point is that these speculative impulses have always figured prominently in Christianity and still do. They arise out of man's attempt to understand his universe and probably can't be segregated as "Eastern" or "Western."

    Currently, the most prevalent conception of Christianity that encompasses Jesus in a manger, God as an old man with a white beard, the trinity, etc. is simply ONE very homogenized portrayal. This evangelical conception of Christianity is widely known because of modern media, but it's NOT the most widely recognized or historically influential.

    I'm not qualified to debate the finer points of Eastern ideas vs Christian gnosticism. However, the Jesuit professors I trained under could go a full ten rounds on the subject and not break a sweat. Still, I'm not trying to say one thing is "better" than another. My only point is that the things westerners seek in eastern thought exists in western religion.

    As an academic interest, I've also studied Jewish intellectual thought and particularly kabala. Again, I'm far from expert here, but the rabbis I've learned from are pretty much agreed that:

    Kabala can (and has) been used to justify any and every mystical notion within man's conception. I'm pretty certain that even Xenu is covered somewhere in the enigmatic writings encompassing Kabala.

    Kabala is a fascinating subject and I don't mean to slight it in the least. But it is the original, "what's true is true for you." I guess that means LRH must have memorized and used it. It's certainly no surprise to me that Kabala would appeal to celebrities. Whatever Madonna says about Kabala is true. And everything she doesn't say about Kabala, is also true.

    Taking Kabala as the extreme example, my only point is that the mystical interests of someone pursuing eastern ideas are well covered in Judaism.

    And really, what is Christianity but the work of eastern mystics? Jesus was a rabbi, so were his disciples. They were drawn to the gnostic influences of the Essenes and the teachings of John the Baptist.

    I deeply admire the spiritual and intellectual forces in all these religions and sincerely hope nothing I've written sounds offending. In truth, I'm the one who is offended by the ignorant remarks I see on message boards. Not here at ESMB, but my home-base WWP is often particularly caustic. Anyone who describes the Christian Eucharist as representative of a "cannibalistic space-cult" simply doesn't know what their talking about. It's not my religion that's offended, it's my intellectual integrity.

    Lake, I did read your other categories, but I'll save commenting for later.

    fisherman
     
  2. afaceinthecrowd

    afaceinthecrowd Gold Meritorious Patron


    Thank you, Lakey.

    I don't have any "target audiences".

    I've been posting on ESMB to sincerely open my heart and mind to others and dialogue with others of open and sincere heart and mind.

    Perhaps I have made a mistake and didn't realize that folks are here to entertain and put on a show for others.

    I think it's time I take a step back for awhile and assess what I’m doing here.

    I’ve gained much from ESMB but I didn't come here seeking an "audience" or to put on a show to attract attention.

    Your Friend Always,

    Face:)
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2010
  3. Challenge

    Challenge Silver Meritorious Patron

    Face, you have not made a mistake.
    Lakey came in with the ANNOUNCED idea that a thread that he created was "his" thread. .that he is the "host" of that thread... That he wants to have the longest thread on ESMB...and to that end he is keeping statistics.
    ( that's the 1973 Apollo thread)
    No matter that it lives on old movies and albums and scenes that have absolutely nothing to do with the subject of scientology.
    Different strokes for different folks. The ones who continue the thread are having a good time with themselves. Let 'em rock on widdoutchu.

    Challenge
     
  4. FoTi

    FoTi Crusader

    Face, you have not made a mistake. Most folks are not here to entertain and put on a show for others, but sometimes people do put up things that are fun and light and educational, especially on the Apollo thread. I think it's because some have been there a while and it's kind of like meeting in someone's livingroom to talk a while and people's personalities start showing up, and we all like some fun once in a while. I enjoy hearing about people's lives and what interesting things they find to show to others. But the main reason I come to ESMB is to follow what is going on with the unraveling of Scientology and to hear what other people's experiences have been with Scientology and how they are doing now and what methods they might have used to help themselves or others recover.

    The Apollo thread has been a life saver for me with Roger B's posts on his knowledge of the tech he knows. He has rescued me several times from the soup of my own confusion and made a huge difference in my life. I have never viewed anyone being on the Apollo thread for entertainment purposes. I feel that people come on that thread to learn from others and offer whatever they have to contribute. But I also look through other threads to see what info I might be missing out on. There are always new people showing up here on ESMB with more new information.

    Please don't go away, Face. I enjoy reading your posts. You are one of the valuable posters on the Apollo thread and I would hate to lose out on the things you have to say. I value your being there and sharing what you have to share. I don't want to lose you.
     
  5. lkwdblds

    lkwdblds Crusader

    Fair enough Fish

    Fisherman, I know next to nothing about Christianity and thank you for your above primer, so to speak! Wasn't the Council of Nicea of 325 A.D. a watershed moment in Christain history where the Catholic faction of Christianity outvoted the factions which you mention in your post which had closer ties to certain forms of Judaism as well as Eastern Religions. Today's garden variety Christians learn very little about what their religion's background is and what the doctrines are all about. They are simply told to accept Christ as their personal savior and let his love run through them and then they are guaranteed a blissful salvation. I'm sure this is a vast simplification but isn't it basically true?
    Lake
     
  6. lkwdblds

    lkwdblds Crusader

    If it ain't broke don't fix it.

    By two different audiences I simply meant the Apollo thread crowd and the crowd here on the main part of the board. There is some overlap but to reach a bigger group of those interested, posting in both areas of the board will get you a few extra readers. I did not mean to infer that you were targetting specific audiences.

    Your doing fine with your posting, superlatively fine. Just keep it up. I certainly had no intention to cause you to do self reflection or revise your priorities. Everyone on ESMB needs your posts. They are extremely valuable!~
    Lakey
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2010
  7. auntpat

    auntpat Patron with Honors

    NOPE

    No, Lakey it is not true. I am, and many of my friends are "today's Christians" , We read and seek enlightment. My seach was started in a Baptist church.

    I was encouraged to search for answers to questions that my Minister could or would not answer. Of course my search led to new questions.

    I have a very personal relationship with Jesus, he comforts and guides me. I also ask for guidence from the Holy Spirit who in my understanding is the wisdom of the Trinity. Of course God is love that makes us all one.

    My leaving $cn before the shit hit the fan was due to my gift of perception from God. I shall always be grateful.

    Light and Love,
    Pat
     
  8. Zinjifar

    Zinjifar Silver Meritorious Sponsor

    Whether you seek an audience you've got one :)

    I wantz moar.

    Zinj
     
  9. afaceinthecrowd

    afaceinthecrowd Gold Meritorious Patron

    :lol::coolwink:
     
  10. afaceinthecrowd

    afaceinthecrowd Gold Meritorious Patron

    Lakey and FoTi,

    I think the world of both of you. Here’s where I’m coming from:

    FoTi addressed Lakey as to why I was posting something on this thread and on the Apollo ’73 thread at the same time.

    My view is that no one on this board controls what I post, when I post or where I post.

    I answered FoTi, very specifically, why I was doing that and the fact that I had, on three previous occasions, done that and referenced at that time why I was doing so.

    Lakey answers FoTi, for me that it had to do with “target audiences”.

    My response to FoTi, which was posted before Lakey’s response for me to FoTi, said nothing about “target audiences”. It said that basically I was involved with a dialogue string here, with Fisherman, and the “framing” I have been posting by installments, was also the same “framing” that I have been posting in installments on the Apollo ’73 thread.

    I have already written a lengthy post on the Apollo ’73 thread as to why I have to post in installments and why it is sometimes days between those installments.

    I’m not trying to “reach bigger groups”…that doesn’t mean doodoo to me. I’ve written on several occasions why I like posting on the “73 thread and it has nothing to do with a “big audience”. It has everything to do with the quality of folks that are consistently active there (like Lakey and FoTi); the fact that I know the Apollo inside out, backwards and forwards; the fact that a number of the folks there are from my “Era” of Scn; the fact that I have much to say about what I saw as an “insider” but, due to my limited capacity for reading and writing, can’t handle a thread of my own in a timely courteous manner in regards to responses.

    Not a day goes by that I don’t read at least half a dozen things in threads on this board (including this one and ’73) that I would love to dialogue with some of the posters or OP. I just can’t do it all. So I “picked a spot” on Apollo '73 and have been plodding my way to get all that’s sitting in my head out on this board as I have, due to circumstances, information that can provide “context” for others here that were not an “insider”.

    Context is important to me. That’s why I’m telling all these stories. Context fosters understanding; Context augers meaning; Context makes time, place, form and event relevant; Context is the only way, in my opinion, to come to terms with and, ultimately, beneficial resolution of and personal growth from the experience of El Ron, CofS, SO and Scn.

    I’m spending the time here on this thread to give context, in my own way of communicating, to Fisherman regarding just what I was doing and why with El Ron and Scn. Eventually, as long as there continued to be some interest, I was going to give that context on the ’73 thread, but Fisherman “hooked me" and I skipped ahead...he’s a very intelligent, thoughtful, educated and sincere guy. He deserves, in my way of viewing the world, the respect and courtesy of a forthright and diligent effort on my part, as long as he has interest. It has been very rewarding to me to try and "frame" the context to my personal "What and Why" re: El Ron, et al for a non Scn.

    I know Lakey and FoTi are not here to put on a show or play to an audience…and most of the folks on the ’73 thread and ESMB aren’t either. But, asking others as to why I’m doing something on this board, which I've already explained, and then others answering for me, when I have already answered, rubs me the wrong way.

    I came to ESMB and the Apollo ’73 thread to learn, to dialogue, to share my “take” and to add to the Body of Context that was withheld from Us and that we, as decent and well intended people justly and rightly deserved in the beginning.

    I will finish what I have personally committed myself to doing…I will finish, over time, my installments of context and “take”. I am going to step back for a few days, take a “breather” and reflect on where and how the remainder—outside of my current dialogue and process on this thread—should be posted. Most likely it will be on the Apollo ’73 thread but I, and my thoughts, are not owned property and ESMB may be gone in four months.

    The Universe saw fit to return my Breath of Life and restore, more and more, my memory and ability to read and write. As long as I have that breath, as long as I can communicate, my purpose is to give context as best I am able and my two chosen tasks at the moment are my book—which is getting way to little attention— and the “purging” of my “take” re: El Ron, CofS, SO and Scn which has been consuming my limited available reading/writing attention.

    I am so blessed to be able to provide unique context to the Body of Knowledge that may be helpful to others in finding there own personal context and meaning about El Ron, et al.

    I am also blessed to be able to, someday, finish telling the story of my own death…which I endeavor to not greatly exaggerate...well, not too much anyway.:coolwink:

    I appreciate you, Lakey and you, FoTi…and all y’all more than you will ever know.:yes:

    Face:)
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2010
  11. Mark A. Baker

    Mark A. Baker Sponsor


    You are being "fully duplicated".

    [Although I still have difficulty grasping how hard writing comes to you now. You write much better than many pros. :coolwink:]


    Mark A. Baker
     
  12. AnonKat

    AnonKat Crusader

    Humorous

    :D
    The Lulz are endless

    [​IMG]
     
  13. lkwdblds

    lkwdblds Crusader

    Great Aunt Pat!!

    Geat Aunt Pat! Thanks for correcting me. I was good friends with a Baptist named Doug Locke in the late 1960's when we both worked for IBM in aerospace. Doug was extremely intelligent and his Dad was a Baptist preacher. Doug turned me on to the books of Edgar Caycee and I read them and this lead me to believing in past lives before I ever got into Scn. Doug and I both came to agree that past lives were a likely truth. He once told me he was speaking at his Baptist Church on a Sunday morning and invited me to come. I had a basketball game scheduled and did not go. I should have gone to Doug's lecture, he was a very bright man.

    What you say about your experience practicing "today's Christianity" is music to my ears. I am so pleased that you found your correct spiritual path and are having the kinds of wins you are having in practicing "today's Christianity". May you continue your spiritual growth through the study and practice of your beloved faith. Thank you for correcting my inaccurate perceptions of modern Christians. God bless you!!
    Lakey
     
  14. CarmeloOrchards

    CarmeloOrchards Crusader

    This is tremendous.

    Your stories about adversity and hep from guardian angels in the teaching and shop keeper professions are pure joy. Having others in your life to mentor one and guide one is so cool.
     
  15. lkwdblds

    lkwdblds Crusader

    Face - Sorry I spoke for you- big mistake for me!

    I super appreciate you Face and your writings and your great courage and the exhibition of your will to live and share your knowledge with us after the unfortunate medical ordeal which you were put through. As my first act of contrition in atoning for my stupidity, I will not speak for FoTi, she will have to speak to you herself.

    Since Emma announced she is bowing out in mid December, I reassessed the knowledge I have gained since I restarted the Apollo thread In October of 2009. I was a nobody, a lowly Director of Disbursements at a Class IV Org but I attracted Carmelo's attention. He hatched a plan and he brought some somebody's, i.e. opinion leaders, to the thread. Sweetness and Light was there from the beginning and then we attracted Roger B., Ted, Enthetan, Thetanic, Mark Baker, Leon, Ethics Particle, Kookaburra and on and on and on who began posting there regularly along with myself and Carmelo. More and more our understanding of L Ron Hubbard, Scientology technology, Ron's C of S and DM's C of S all grew by leaps and bounds. but lingering questions still remained unanswered.

    One Day, Face who had been lurking and unbeknownst to us had been posting a bit elsewhere landed smack dab right in the middle of the Apollo thread!! In his folksy Will Rogers manner of story telling, Face has filled in virutally all the missing pieces. FOR ME THE ENIGMA AND RIDDLE OF L RON HUBBARD, SCIENTOLOGY AND THE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY IS COMPLETELY SOLVED AND RESOLVED. My quest is over and virtually all the information I wanted to know (I WILL NO LONGER SPEAK FOR OTHERS) has now been discovered, written up and commented on and analyzed. It remains to edit and print our 490 pages of text, add a table of contents and and index and print everything out as a book or ebook. We couldn't have had closure without Face. We needed someone who worked directly with LRH on the inside to come forward and fill in the blanks for us. Face was that person!
    Lakey
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2010
  16. CarmeloOrchards

    CarmeloOrchards Crusader

    me too
     
  17. lkwdblds

    lkwdblds Crusader

    I have a couple of clarifications to discuss.

    Challenge, I appreciate your comments. I need to have a couple of points cleared up.

    #1 When you say, "Lakey came in" what are you refering to? I started this thread too, so I did not just come in here, I am the OP.

    #2 I thought it was normal for the Originating Poster of a thread to refer to the thread as his or her thread and to call themselves the host or hostess. Am I in error on these points? Using these terms is not necessarily a sign of ego, it is just a convenient verbal means of referring to a thread. It is easier to say my thread instead of spelling out the entire thread name each time. If my usage of terms is wrong, please correct me!

    #3 I do not believe I have ever said that I want to have the longest thread on ESMB. I have no desire to specifically achieve such a goal. I want every thread I originate to be of high quality but I believe that is a common trait which others share and it is the correct idea to exhibit, to take pride in something that one has started and do everything as a professional.

    #4 I do not keep statistics on the thread. The Thread host and thread software keep all the statistics. Sometimes I analyze their statistics. I only have 3 basic involvements with statistics.

    A. When I started the Apollo "73 thread I wanted to hit 5,000 views.
    B. When Carmelo joined with me in October, it was he who set the goal to crack the top 10 threads in amount of views. At that time it took about 29,000 views to be in 10th place so Carmelo and I set this as a goal to achieve.
    C. Once we achieved 10th place, Carmelo and I both wanted to rise in the rankings. I have always been a numbers guy and used to read the World Almanac as a teen ager and memorized all the numbers. The heights of tall buildings, the cirulation of magazines and newspapers, the land areas and populations of all the countries, the tallest mountains, etc. etc. I would just read it and those facts would stick in my mind.

    I detect that you do not like it when I mention statistics. To me, it hurts no one and I could not see why anyone would object to that. Finally, I realized that many ex Scios have charge on the subject from thier days of having to keep stats for the C of S. Could you please tell me your objection to me mentioning stats? If your objection has merit, I will try and accomodate you amd stop mentioning them. I mainly use stats as a tool to maintain interest and create a game. I can give it up in a hearbeat if it is causing someone pain or discomfort.

    #5 I am certain you are in error on your remarks that the Apollo thread lives only on things which have nothing to do with Scientology. It is true that we cover many and varied topics as you suggest. It is also true that for a significant period we did not talk much about Scientology. The subject always had a presence, Leon posted on it and Heidrun Beer who no longer posts with us was posting a lot about Scientology and there were others but much more was posted on other topics than on Scientology for perhaps a good four months.

    When Face arrived, the equation changed and he brought us back to Scientology. For the last 3 months or so, I would say that over 50% of our discussions have been Scientology related.

    Our newest star player on the Apollo thread is the Magic Thetan, John Raffanelo. He is probably the main highlight of the thread's immediate future and he talks mostly Scientology. With Face, Roger, Ted and Johnny all posting there will be a preponderance of tallk about Scientology in the near future.

    #6 You say that the ones who continue the thread are having a good time. You do not seem to include me in this group and yet I am very much still active there. I am having a good time with them! Why are you writing me out of the mix? I would really like to know so that perhaps I could correct myself if I am doing something which upsets you.

    #7 You say, "Let em rock on widdoutchu" Here again more ill will towards me. I just can not figure why you have dislike for me. There are only two possiblities that I can think of. One is that you resent me for being egotistical and for keeping stats and the other is that my wife of 29 years was dating your husband of 29 years when I met her and maybe there is some bad feelings involved there. Why else would you have such dislike for me?

    In summary, I believe you are correct in being critical of me for keeping stats and taking credit for participation in endeavors which you feel others are creating. You are absolutely right feeling the way you do about me in your Universe. I am just wondering that if you could communicate to me from your universe some things that I would need to change to cause you to see me in a better light, I would like to see what those things are and unless they conflicted with deeply held core beliefs of mine, I will change them to suit you better. I have taken my time to really reach out to you and try and handle the bad feelings which you seem to hold towards me. Neither of us is a spring chicken any longer and if possible, I would like to reach a meeting of minds with you at this time. It is important to me to get this handled if possible, otherwise I would not have taken all this time to write this post. If we cannot reach a more harmonious relationship, then so be it. I'll know that at least I gave it my best shot.
    Lakey
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2010
  18. FoTi

    FoTi Crusader


    Who's speaking for who? Er...whom? :blink: :wacko: :unsure: :roflmao:

    I had asked Lakey a question about Face's posting in two places because Lakey made a comment about Face posting the same thing in two places. I asked Lakey the question because I was responding to Lakey's post. Face answered it for me. Then Lakey answered it for Face. Face didn't like that. What a mix up. :ohmy:


    Face, have a pleasant time out. I look forward to your next post. I really enjoy reading what you have to present here on ESMB. I understand it's difficult for you, You are doing a beautiful job. Your difficulties do not show in your writing, and what you have to share here is valuable.

    And, by the way, my two cents here, I don't want anybody to stop talking about themselves or their stories because I like to hear about people and what they experience in their own lives, which is different from mine. It enriches my life to learn about others and their experiences.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2010
  19. fisherman

    fisherman Patron with Honors

    Face, I'm having too much fun with puppy, so just a quick note from me.

    What you wrote about the value of context had me chanting, "yes, yes, yes!" In writing a historical narrative context IS EVERYTHING, as you said. Communicating context deftly is the art in writing history and you do it very well.

    I haven't commented on your latest efforts, but I truly enjoyed reading them. For an outsider like myself the picture you paint is critical to understanding. I know how much work it takes to write well and appreciate the effort you've invested. :thumbsup:

    Back to puppy-time!

    fisherman
     
  20. afaceinthecrowd

    afaceinthecrowd Gold Meritorious Patron

    Thanks, MAB.:thumbsup:

    Writing for me is kinda like making sausage...it isn't pretty to watch and it gets messy but some folks seem to like it when it's done and, so far, don't get sick too often.:coolwink:

    Face:)
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2010