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Discussion in 'Scientology-related Videos' started by AnonKat, Apr 25, 2011.

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  1. Panda Termint

    Panda Termint Cabal Of One

    I think I've actually heard that before, Vin.

  2. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    It is interesting to note what David writes in the editorial of this magazine. What prompted Hubbard to come up with the idea of Dianetic Clear, which led to a technical disaster? Was Hubbard trying to bring back his old glory days after missing them for a while?

    The idea of Clear seems to be an arbitrary. The closest I can come to defining it would be, "A drastic reduction of attention on one's case." But that would be so different for different individuals. One could say, "Oh! My attention on my case has been drastically reduced," while still having a lot of attention on one's case.

    In my view, the purpose of spiritual progress would be to reduce confusion and complexity. The abilities shall show through by themselves. It would be like dusting off the diamond. Remove the dust. The inherent shine will now be there on its own accord. Sorry, David, for this disagreemnt with your old Scientology viewpoint.

    The effort of the purist in the field has been to cash on Hubbard's reputation. Hubbard was trying to do this himself. This is what Freezone seem to be doing. There is no original research among Scientologists. This is a big outpoint when one sees that Scientology is supposed to restore self-determinism. David seemed to suffer from this outpoint too but to a lesser degree in 1984. The whole idea behind "squirreling" was to suppress others from building upon whatever little originality was there in Hubbard's research.

    Fixed attention on $$$, instead of attention on spiritual progress is another big outpoint in Scientology. This is Corporate America model. I don't think any price can be put on the effort of a friend to help his/her friend. That is what spiritual help is all about. If one helps another unconditionally, karma always takes care of one. The exchange is natural. Exchange cannot be enforced in the area of spirituality. Let people who are helped contribute to the helpful activity on their own determinism. That will quickly show the worth of that spiritually helpful activity.

  3. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    Hearing and actually practing are two very different universes.

    Last edited: Apr 28, 2011
  4. Panda Termint

    Panda Termint Cabal Of One

  5. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Also, on the topic of 'Clear', there's...


    Excerpts from the 1991 article by David Mayo.

    "...the attributes of a clear, as described in DMSMH, were never actually attained, although in reading DMSMH, one might be led to believe that they were. When people started attesting to clear, the definition was watered down to the vague generality 'at cause over mental MEST as regards the first dynamic'. This definition can mean many different things to many different people. Anyone is at least somewhat causative over his own mind. So anyone can find an interpretation of this definition of 'clear' that he can attest to. The states of 'MEST Clear', 'Theta Clear', 'Cleared Theta Clear', 'Clearing Course Clear', 'Clear-OT', and, finally, 'Dianetic Clear'... were equally absolutistic when first stated, but when people started attesting to them, the definition of each, or the criterion for allowing a pc to attest to each, was similarly watered down. This sequence has been repeated over and over throughout the history of Scientology...

    "Everyone does have a reactive mind - his own reactive mind. That's why one flies ruds and goes E/S and gets off BPC on anyone regardless of their point on the grade chart. The mechanics of the reactive mind continue to exist all the way up.

    " 'Clears' have always had trouble explaining why they still act reactively at times, or a lot of the time, and why they still have problems in life and in getting along with people...

    "The idea of 'harmonics of clear' is quite accurate. The main reason why LRH blew up at the idea of 'harmonics of clear', as expressed in the HCOB I wrote, was, as he told me, that this idea tended to leave him open to the charge that the claims he had made in DMSMH and elsewhere concerning the 'state of clear' were fraudulent...

    "It was PR and marketing considerations that led Hubbard to decide that certain people were 'clear' at a certain point...

    "[Clear] is not an attainable state (at least given our present level of technology)...

    "Regardless of what a state is named, the recognition that a person can become clear-er, restores hope and makes progress possible again."

    Complete article:
  6. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    The above makes complete sense to me. I shall take it one step further.

    The whole idea of OT and "body thetans" seems to come from the same consideration that his claims about Clear in DMSMH may not be invalidated.

    Instead of further clearing one's case, one is now supposed to do it by clearing the case of something else attached to one. This sleight of hand was required to "explain" what is being cleared after one is already clear.

    There are no BTs in my opinion, just more mental mechanisms. As I explained elsewhere, BTs also allow one to simply accept what comes up in the mind, instead of keep searching the mind for answers. This searching of the bank had been the built-in out-tech at lower levels. And that has been due to a misguided faith in the e-meter. Overrun is created by searching for an answer when there is no answer because the question was wrong to start with.

    One does not need an e-meter, when one lets the mind un-stack itself. All that one needs is patience. But Hubbard was short on patience.

    Last edited: Apr 28, 2011
  7. uniquemand

    uniquemand Unbeliever

    I've long considered BTs to be projections or errors in consciousness. Misconceptions, if you will, though I didn't use that term prior to Mayo's arrival here. You can always create more, simply by imagining more, and it is possible that they can occur simply as an echo from a distant memory (see: "demon circuits" in DMSMH).

    While there may be benefit in addressing them, considering them as spiritual fragments trying to subvert control over your mind is... schizophrenic.

  8. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    Scientists revise their theories based on what they find in their research. Why couldn't Hubbard revise and simplify his theories?

    The reason is simple. The root cause lies in his greed for $$$. Why would he be accused of fraud otherwise.

    Hubbard made his life, and also his tech, very complicated because he could not let go of certain desires.

  9. uniquemand

    uniquemand Unbeliever

    It's also in his ego. He couldn't admit that he was wrong. I think he did, obviously, recognize shortcomings and dead ends, but instead of really revising, he'd just add a new theory, while leaving the old one standing, and basing it all on pure supposition or a single case (most often his own).
  10. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    What we have in Scientology is a Rube Goldberg's device. It can be simplified greatly by thowing away the Bridge and the E-meter as a first step.

  11. uniquemand

    uniquemand Unbeliever

  12. Hatshepsut

    Hatshepsut Crusader

    There is schizophrenia. There are complexities of the mind where one slides in and out of compartmentalized roles. But as above so below. Maybe its an ability gone wrong. I think that when threatened with extinction one assumes a point from which something COULD be confronted___ moving out and away from, abandoning previous anchors. I think strengthening a person's ability to confront could dissolve walls between dissociated paths.

    I think what has always been overlooked is the power we have to create a 'living' via. The big secret. Many of use have issued forth animated particles that draw to us what we need. They 'pull' us towards that which has been the initial envisionment that caused that spark of life. They take on our decisions and control the environment for us on automatic, the anima corralling the right players to the stage. I've seen that we create and employ these pieces of our own lifeforce. We are powerful. We don't take responsibility for the abundance of life, good or bad. To do so might make us contemplate the matter in which we 'appeared' on this point. It doesn't make any difference. It's the illusion of space and separateness and the finagling of minds.

    Possibly when the striving towards our wants ends horrifically we take these old closed out bundles and stuff them. (The liability of our over-creativity.) The most responsible people who can really confront problems seem to have less dodging into safe vectors or minds to use as a via. And if we are all part of ONE consciousness, the vectors of others may be used possibly to solve a problem too. At the level of individuality, (the illusion of self) the possessing of certain strengths and weaknesses makes a nice universal ante for us 'separate' players.

    Ooops. I thought this was the misconceptons thread. Darn tiny screen on my phone.
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2011
  13. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    The error seems to be the fixation on SURVIVE!

  14. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

    Now that is a bright idea, Vin!

    And, as long as we are simplifying, after throwing away the Bridge and the E-meter, let's continue our successful actions and throw away the books, tapes, bulletins, polices and tech.


    If Scientology jettisoned all the above named encumbrances, I would gladly become a Scientologist again.
  15. WildKat

    WildKat Gold Meritorious Patron

    Very interesting

    I watched the whole thing, it was fascinating. With Marty's new "Independent" group, it's deja vu all over again, isn't it? A new renegade group asserting their supremacy over the old and corrupt organization. Will the outcome be any different this time?

    My biggest question is:
    Where are they all today? Did I read somewhere that David Mayo is not gung-ho about Scientology anymore?

    Some of the people impressed me as truly decent folk who really wanted to help. Others impressed me as Huge Egos Run Amok.

    I'm really curious how many of them are still alive and how many are still playing the game, and whether they retain their total certainty and faith in The Tech.
  16. AnonKat

    AnonKat Crusader

    Still a nice "Golden Oldie"
  17. AnonyMary

    AnonyMary Formerly Fooled - Finally Free

    Just ran across this video tonight. Definitely worth watching. Captures the essence of the times, the hopes, the efforts... even though the tech turned out to be a bunch baloney, at east these people were doing what they believed in, free of the church oppression, willing to carry on at the time. They certainly gave the church a scare; enough to go to great lengths to make life miserable for quite a few people and shut the AAC down. I was still in when all that Mission Holder and AAC creation stuff went down but I remember things being very different after the exodus. I probably would have left with the others if I'd known all that was happening at the time.

    Definitely a historical classic. Thanks for posting it.
  18. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    how history repeats itself in the COS from the very beginning, Dr Winter who was a true beilever, to Johnny Mac, to Mayo, to Marty and Mike.
  19. WildKat

    WildKat Gold Meritorious Patron

    Always a good thread to bump.
  20. WildKat

    WildKat Gold Meritorious Patron

    This really is a fascinating video. It was done in what, 1984? 30 years ago?

    So many of these people were so dedicated to trying to help, it seems they really had their hearts in the right place.

    The big question is: What became of them?

    Are they still part of the Independents, even though the AAC was shut down?

    Are they still alive?

    Are they still true believers, or have they faded away? I had heard David Mayo fell away from embracing the tech.

    A few of those people really spoke with that "dedicated glare" look in their eyes. Especially that Thomas woman.

    So where are they NOW?