Alanzo Apologism 101: Does Anti-Scientology Deserve Any Criticism?

Discussion in 'Life After Scientology' started by Alanzo, Aug 11, 2019.

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  1. pineapple

    pineapple Silver Meritorious Patron

    I'd say it begins as persuasion, with a very light touch. "Nothing in scn is true except what you yourself have experienced." Who can argue with that? But then more loyalty and effort is demanded, and the acceptance of increasingly bizarre beliefs. With the Manson family for example, it was all peace and love at first, then Manson began talking about the upcoming race war and how the family would escape by hiding in a bottomless hole in the desert. I think you can see the parallel in scn from ideas that are easy to accept (you are a spiritual being, etc.) to ideas that are much more bizarre (evil psychs, Xenu, etc.).

    Any resistance to these ideas is met by harangues re-emphasizing their importance, threats of punishment or actual punishment. Think WC'ing or ethics handling. Think WC'ing isn't brainwashing? You will start looking up words you actually already understand because study tech says all disagreement comes from MU's. You will convince yourself you have MU's and convince yourself you've cleared them and now understand the material, because you want to escape the tedium of endless WC'ing. And you do this without even realizing it.

    What are the lower conditions but punishment? I never saw the conditions from liability on down as anything but. But instead of calling the lower conditions punishment, Hubbard calls them "ethics." Because that sounds better than "punishment." By using a milder term he puts a better face on it, hopes to get us to accept it.

    And I think that's what Alanzo is doing here too. He wants us to abandon the negative term "brainwashing" and accept the positive term "loyalty." He wants us to see scn in a more positive light for some reason.

    I don't know why. Even after we left scn, it took many of us years to gradually come to a realization of just how wrong it was. Would it benefit us now to see scn in a more positive light?

    Is scn just some poor little minority religion that we should stop treating so mean? Sorry, I don't think so.
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  2. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    Such did NOT occur when and where I was in...

    And yes!

    Anti-scientology boils over with HUGE BLACK LIES...

    This is NOT to invalidate your report which is presumed to be honest and accurate
  3. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    You and Alanzo keep talking about "Anti-Scientology" as a thing, a movement, a group ... I've never seen or heard of this group. Where is it?
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  4. pineapple

    pineapple Silver Meritorious Patron

    Thanks. I was wondering about that myself.
  5. freethinker

    freethinker Sponsor


  6. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    I don't know, no I don't know
    But I see it's footprints in the snow..
  7. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    For me, the whole discussion of brainwashing is a red herring.

    Why does it matter whether brainwashing works or not.

    People can be controlled in various ways.

    Hubbard indoctrinated them for years, instilling a belief system which allowed the organization to control members.

    Scientologists are VERY heavily controlled. There are strict policies on what information Scientologists can and cannot see, TV shows and movies which are forbidden to watch, people they're not allowed to associate with (sometimes their own FAMILY!) Even thinking certain thoughts are forbidden.
    If you think the wrong thoughts you'll pay hundreds of dollars per hour as a penalty when they are addressed in a sec check.

    What is worse from the perspective of a true believing Scientologist, someone sticking a gun in your face, threatening your life?
    Or the Ethics Officer threatening you with an SP Declare which can adversely affect you for trillions of years?

    If you are going to talk about brainwashing though, please define what you mean by it.
    You claim to be all about science but the word 'brainwashing' is not a scientific term.
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  8. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    The Boston Red Sox are looking for you CP.

    They need your help desperately.

    What were the HUGE BLACK LIES? That placing small children into a chain locker for weeks at a time was bad for them?
  9. Alanzo

    Alanzo Screeching Harpy

    But what about Patty Hearst's brainwashing defense?

    With all her dad's money, and F Lee Bailey at the helm, why was she convicted of the crimes she committed? Why didn't her brainwashing defense work in court?

    If brainwashing was anything more than a belief, why couldn't the jury see the objective truth of it?

    And what about Squeaky Fromme and the other Manson members? They were convicted too, right?


    And the people who murdered Leo Ryan on that airstrip in Guyana. Aren't they still in prison for those crimes?

    So these three court cases you presented, Pineapple, as proof of the existence of brainwashing as something more than your own belief, are actually proof that your belief in brainwashing is false.

    Do you have any more evidence we can see that positively supports your claim that brainwashing is anything more than your own belief?
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  10. freethinker

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  11. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Absolutely, the whole discussion of "brainwashing" is a red herring and can be by passed.

    Over fifty years ago it was recognized that Hubbard built Scientology on a blueprint that (covertly, at least at first) had to do with asserting and maintaining dominion over others.

    This has since been very well documented.

    What it's called is unimportant.
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  12. Emma

    Emma Mother of Dragons Administrator

    I'm not sure that is true. I think it's easier in your own mind to recover from "coercion" or "manipulation" or "blind loyalty". These are things you can examine, see how it works, and learn how to avoid these things again. If you believe you've been brainwashed I think it opens the door to a feeling of helplessness, or permanent damage. Language is important.
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  13. Alanzo

    Alanzo Screeching Harpy

    Robert L Lifton wrote "Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism", which is an ideological document we can start with. It is basically the Bible that all anticult movement believers refer back to.

    But as Dick Anthony showed, even Lifton's data shows 'brainwashing' did not work on the people he studied from the North Korean POW camp.

    Here’s 8 clear examples Anthony gave – in Benjamin Zablocki’s Misunderstanding Cults.

    “As we have shown, the CIA brainwashing model which had been disconfirmed by the CIA research program, as well as by the research of Lifton, Schein, and others, provides the actual theoretical foundation for all statements of brainwashing theory including cultic brainwashing formulations such as Zablocki’s.’​

    “Consequently, his cultic brainwashing theory, like the earlier statements of this theory, such as those of Singer and Ofshe, is contradicted by its own claimed theoretical foundation, that is the research of Schein and Lifton. My 1990 article demonstrated that eight variables differentiate Singer’s and Ofshe’s brainwashing theory from Schein’s and Lifton’s research. ”​

    “The present chapter has demonstrated the same set of conflicts between Zablocki’s approach and generally accepted research on Communist thought reform as characteristic of the Ofshe-Singer formulation.”​

    “As I have shown above, the research of Schein and Lifton on Westerners in thought reform prisons, upon which Zablocki claims to base his brainwashing formulation, confirmed and extended Hinkle’s and Wolff’s earlier findings. As I argued in my 1990 article, their research on Communist forceful indoctrination practices disconfirmed the CIA model with respect to eight variables:’​

    1 Conversion. None of Schein’s and Lifton’s subjects became committed to Communist worldviews as a result of the thought reform program. Only two of Lifton’s forty subjects and only one or two of Schein’s fifteen subjects emerged from the thought reform process expressing some sympathy for Communism, with neither of them actually becoming Communists. In the remaining subjects, Communist coercive persuasion produced behavioural compliance but not increased belief in Communist ideology (Lifton 1961:117,248-9; Schein 1958: 332,1961:157-66,1973: 295).​

    2 Predisposing motives. Those subjects who were at all influenced by Communist indoctrination practices were predisposed to be so before they were subjected to them (Lifton 1961:130; Schein 1961: 104-10,140-56 1973: 295).​

    3 Physical coercion. Communist indoctrination practices produced involuntary influence only in that subjects were forced to participate in them through extreme physical coercion (Lifton 1961:13,1976: 327-8; Schein 1959: 437,33 1961:125-7).​

    4 Continuity with normal social influence. The non-physical techniques of influence utilized in Communist thought reform are common in normal social influence situations and are not distinctively coercive. (Lifton 1961: 438-61; Schein 1961: 269-82,1962: 90-7,1964: 331-51).​

    5 Conditioning. No distinctive conditioning procedures were utilized in Communist coercive persuasion (Schein 1959: 437-8,1973: 284-5; Biderman 1962: 550).​

    6 Psychophysiological stress/debilitation. The extreme physically-based stress and debilitation to which imprisoned thought reform victims were subjected did not cause involuntary commitment to Communist worldviews (Hinkle and Wolff 1956; Lifton: 117, 248-9; Schein 1958: 332,1961:157-66,1973: 295). Moreover, no comparable practices are present in new religious movements (Anthony 1990: 309-11).​

    7 Deception/defective thought. Victims of Communist thought reform did not become committed to Communism as a result of deception or defective thought (Schein 1961: 202-3,238-9).​

    8 Dissociation/hypnosis/suggestibility Those subjected to thought reform did not become hyper-suggestible as a result of altered states of consciousness; for example, hypnosis, dissociation, disorientation, and so on (Schein 1959: 457; Biderman 1962: 550)-​
  14. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    I'll look further into this stuff at some point when I get a chance but it's completely irrelevant to a discussion on Scientology IMO. It's just a red herring as I wrote earlier.

    Probably important though for "Alanzo Apologism" as you put it.
  15. Veda

    Veda Sponsor


    Use of commonsense truths, and abreaction/catharsis, Scientology exploits catharsis | Ex Scientologist Message Board to set up others for deeper involvement where they will be subject to manipulation, "coercion," etc. are all part of the package.

    No need to use the slang term "brainwashing," except as a footnote to explain Hubbard used the term on a few occasions.
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
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  16. Alanzo

    Alanzo Screeching Harpy

    There is a whole belief system which has been created for Exes to adopt - the anticult movement belief system - which is not factual.

    And further, it is self-destructive.

    It does not give Exes anything they can use to re-adjust to mainstream society after their 'cult brainwashing" in a minority religion, as they come to believe.

    Nor does the anticult movement belief system allow any kind of constructive basis for analysis of their previous self as a "cult member".

    It's bad.

    And I'm back on ESMB to demonstrate why it's bad. And to try to present more science-based alternatives to this self-destructive belief system so Exes can have the information they need to make informed decisions.

    I'm an idiot.

    I care about Ex-Scientologists.
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  17. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    People were doing just fine without your "help."
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  18. freethinker

    freethinker Sponsor

    Now you are making sense.
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  19. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    You have not presented any evidence that 1) Some evil person has "created" an anti-cult movement belief system or 2) anyone here believes your anti-cult belief system.

    Your mind-reading abilities are really, really, really bad. Prove the two points, above.

    Or, don't and continue lecturing to an empty hall. There is no one in your audience who fits your imaginary profile.
  20. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    Damn! No one ever shared with me what beliefs were acceptable as part of this anticult movement.

    And no one even shared with me that there was even a movement.

    Actually, it sounds like complete bullshit.
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