ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at

An honest version of Scientology?

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by Veda, Oct 8, 2018.

View Users: View Users
  1. pineapple

    pineapple Silver Meritorious Patron

    How about non-alcoholic beer?
    F.Bullbait likes this.
  2. F.Bullbait

    F.Bullbait Oh, a wise guy,eh?

    Coffee with no caffeine?
    pineapple likes this.
  3. DagwoodGum

    DagwoodGum Squirreling Dervish

    Wouldn't that be like "an honest version of the Boston Strangler"?
    Perhaps the honest strangler would sign his name on the corpse and leave a hand written synopsis of time, place, form and event to assist law enforcement in tracking down his whereabouts with ample notations of how potential victims can best avoid the circumstances that would place them at risk from him and other psychopaths.
    But, more realistically, someone who's suited for the task could write a book detailing whatever truths are contained in Scientology and where they were lifted from and how they were re-worded by such a re-wording master.
    And done before all such people who were around Hubbard have died off.
    Then people could avoid the business organization of Scientology like the plague and simply turn to this new reference manual to find whatever could be of potential value so as to avoid whatever impulse one could feel to turn or return to the organization for spiritual therapy and growth where they would only find enslavement and entrapment.
    A Cliff Notes version of the best of Scientology's heist's of truth and enlightenment.
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2018
    Voodoo and JustSheila like this.
  4. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

    [bcolor=#ffff00]How about non-alcoholic beer?
    [bcolor=#ffff00]Coffee with no caffeine? [/bcolor]

    [bcolor=#ffffff]Sex with a condom? :biggrin:[/bcolor]
  5. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    This is probably a more appropriate illustration, considering the venue.



    Carl Jung addresses his Soul

    This audio/video is sometimes difficult to hear but, if one clicks the top, and goes to YouTube video, there's a transcription of it.

    This is Carl Jung addressing his Soul, or perhaps "Higher Self" or "Over Soul" would be a better description.

    There are many views on how the notion of a Soul (capital "S") should be regarded. One holds that the person on Earth is no more his entire being than a finger tip is the entire physical body. Re-uniting the finger tip with the rest of the body (the "lower soul" with the "Higher Soul"), according to some, will occur at the end of the person's physical life. Others attempt this connection in this life through prayer, meditation, and other mental/spiritual disciplines.

    In Scientology, there is no "Higher Self" or "Higher Soul" recognized, and Scientologists tend to see themselves as the compete expression of their being, They are "thetans" who proudly announce that they do not have a soul but are a soul. Yet, what if there is a Higher Soul, and Scientologists have cut themselves off from that? The result: many little Scientologists with giant egos, cut off from further spiritual exploration that may have made then whole.

    Years ago, I even experimented ("squirrelling") with this area, using the basic format of an auditing session. The client ("pc"), after a brief description/discussion of the notion of a Higher Self, was asked if there was (forgive the Scientologese, it was a long time ago) an "ARC break" with the Higher Self, with idea of opening a line of communication. It was interesting but not earth-shaking.

    It's perhaps noteworthy that Aleister Crowley wrote of "the knowledge and conversation with one's Holy Guardian Angel" as an objective of Magic(k)al study and exercise. Crowley, towards the end of his life, admitted that his "Holy Guardian Angel" may not have been a separate being, but an aspect of his own mind.

    (And to Scientologists reading this. No, this is not about "BTs.")

    Hubbard wrote (in the 1940s) of his Guardian Angel, whom he named, and seemed to regard her (it was a female) as a separate being.

    During the amphetamine inspired loose-lipped days of 1952, Hubbard briefly mentioned that a group could have a "Guardian angel" and then, as far as I know, never mentioned the subject again.

    In any event, this audio/visio by Jung is worth hearing, IMO. It does appear the Jung regarded himself as the lesser expression of a greater Being (no matter how one wishes to word it), one with which he wished to re-acquaint himself.

    This is one of several "occult" ideas that Hubbard (at times at least) seemed to take seriously himself, but which he blocked Scientologists from exploring.
    Hatshepsut likes this.
  6. guanoloco

    guanoloco As-Wased

    I agree that there is no traditional lower and Higher self concept in Scientology; however, there is a Hubbard bastardization of this concept.

    Hubbard talks about the composite-being and he talks of the thetan as being well below body death. The concept of the Bridge was to raise the thetan, itself, up the Tone Scale. In the composite-being the thetan is buried. By stripping away (negative case gain) the thetan was uncovered to ultimately become itself as self-determined instead of an overwhelmed less than alive thing.

    The composite-being to thetan is sort of a lower to Higher self.

    By doing the Bridge one uncovers to discover one's true self. The true self is Native State and one discovers that they are moral, ethical, good, right, correct, kind, thoughtful, merciful and happy all along...all the additives being false.

    It's the same concept. It's echoed in mainstream religion as being isolated and cut off from God or Jesus or whatever. It's the same in far Eastern religions of non duality where the idea of a "self" is an illusion and source of all pain and misery...the ego "self" existing as unenlightened in an illusory state of individuated from a higher reality of Nirvana or Atman or whatever.

    This concept:

    I'm not saying Scientology accomplishes this...rather it sells this idea that it delivers it.
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2018
    Hatshepsut and Clay Pigeon like this.
  7. F.Bullbait

    F.Bullbait Oh, a wise guy,eh?

    As in politics, it is dishonesty that attracts folks like flies to shit.

    Last edited: Oct 10, 2018
  8. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    HH, I'm a crisschin and if...IF(???)...I have an eternity it is sponsored by the God of Abraham

    I wouldn't deny being a scientologist but I wouldn't proclaim it either. I am sure as Hell an Auditor and a Dianeticist.

    You frequently proclaim Hubbard's work to be of no value and sometimes I must resist the temptation to object. But I do because you're HH, El Primo Maximo at this particular House of Ill Repute...
  9. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    As to "an honest version of Scientology" my own thought, as it so often does, wanders onto a different diagonal.

    The comic book Super Hero whose powers most closely resemble "OT" is the Green Lantern whose postulates are made manifest through a ring which must be recharged each twentyfour hours. An impurity in the lanterns power element makes recharging necessary but if the impurity is refined from it the damn thing don't work at all

    Think about it...
  10. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    I see what you're saying, but if there's anything to the idea of a higher self, Scientology does not address it.

    As you say, it's a bastardization.

    Hubbard did a similar thing with his denouncing and ignoring of the astral body, which was a gradient step in Magic(k) between the physical body and the pure "body of light."

    Hubbard knew certain things he did not share with Scientologists.
    JustSheila likes this.
  11. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    Well Veda, couldn't we just say it was conceived out of wedlock and give the pejorative some time off?
  12. RogerB

    RogerB Crusader

    Hubbard spoke of the notion of a "Native State" of being.

    This, putatively, being the earliest and ultimate condition of being before we altered ourselves and screwed up.

    This is not a new idea, it is spoken of in all the religions of the East and many native cultures.

    But, what is confused about it all and in argument is, what were the changes introduced that took us away from and impaired the purity of the/our Native State. Also what is unclear and argued over is, what are the attributes and operating condition of the/a Native State being.

    Alan Walter has done a good job of answering these questions with: a) his book, "Gods in Disguise" and, b) the "New Axiom One" he and I wrote together.

    One of the very great errors in the discourse on this subject of "spirit, mind, body" is the notion that the "mind" is some sort of separate thing to you as a spiritual presence.

    What if "your mind" is actually an altered aspect of your own spiritual presence and Being? That is, it is not truly a separate thing to you but actually an altered form/part of you . . .

    Work Alan and I did has demonstrated this to be so . . . but that is a whole big subject, too big to delineate in this post. But, historically, having brought into being the alteration to our "Native State" we then considered it to be different, separate to and not self, and hence we ended up in the dizzy scene we see discussed here.

  13. RogerB

    RogerB Crusader

    On the subject Human Spirituality and its abilities . . .

    Scientists Publish A New Study Examining Humans’ Ability To Accurately Predict Future Events

    Long definitive article, SNIPPED . . .

    Humans with ‘special abilities’ have been reported throughout history, here’s an example straight from the CIA’s electronic reading room. The point is, we can use these concepts to develop techniques to improve our lives, and the lives of all life on planet Earth. Perhaps we will one day be able to perceive future events that are not in humanities best interest and then take steps to change that potential future. I believe those who possess gifts for perceiving the future might be picking up on potential timelines, sort of like the wave of potentials in the quantum double slit experiment.
    The main takeaway is that we have many more abilities that we’ve been made to believe, and still some we have yet to discover. At the end of the day, it’s the consciousness behind these discoveries that determine whether or not they will be used by humanity. It’s just like technology, do we weaponize it or use it for the overall good of humanity?
    Voodoo likes this.
  14. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    Wouldn't co-existence as theta qualify as a higher state, above existence as a separate viewpoint (as a thetan)? And existence as a thetan a higher plane above existence as a thetan in a body, wherein the thetan's desires are comingled with the body's desires /urges of survival, reproduction, food seeking and the like?

    Isn't nirvana much the same as co-existence as theta, without getting into semantics and Hubbard's terminology vs. other "wog" terminology?

  15. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader


    Scientology has this inverted trap of appealing to the selfish ego and elevating self as supreme while cutting off all those intimate, wonderful connections to others and eliminating compassion, love and the higher, more spiritual side of man.

    It uses pride and vanity to entrap while promoting a higher purpose and promotes Hubbard as the authority and a god.

    It's a classic trap because it has been used for thousands of years. The Bible and other religious texts describe this as the very definition of evil:

    2 Timothy 2:26Verse Concepts
    and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

    The Buddha's teaching of the Four Noble Truths tells us that suffering is caused by greed, or thirst, but also that greed is rooted in the delusion of an isolated, separate self.

    According to Arvind Sharma, Shankara's Advaita Vedanta school does not attribute the evil and suffering to the abstract concept of Brahman, but to ignorance, delusion and wrong knowledge.[18] The universe and all existence is without a beginning or end, and Brahman is everything before and after that beginning, before and after the end.[17] Further, in Hindu thought, neither evil nor error are final, all happiness and suffering is impermanent, and truth ultimately triumphs.

    Yes, Hubbard knew more than he admitted.
    Hatshepsut likes this.
  16. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    So we are back to parsing out the good things in Scientology.

    I think the US commandeered 1600 Nazi rocket scientists after the war. No one can deny they made significant contributions to the advancement of the US space and military efforts. We probably use assembly line and manufacturing procedures which were developed by the Nazis. The VW bug is one of, if not, the most successful longest running designs ever. The field of genetics may knowingly or unknowingly use Nazi principles used to cull Jews. A study of propaganda and marketing isn't complete without a section on Goebbels.

    My house has a lot of communist Chinese made stuff in and on it.

    Like Scientology, both the Nazis and communist Chinese successes and advancements were built upon other works and there are a lot of examples where an inherently evil or destructive group or person made contributions that were actually helpful when applied by non-evil people.

    I think the main difference here is I know communist Chinese drywall is made by an evil totalitarian country that uses predatory trading practices and currency manipulation and it can't be trusted to not be defective or contaminated. And I know that buying communist made stuff supports that system while undermining ethical systems. I may still buy and use it but I have no illusions about who made it.

    Scientologists and ex-Scientologists depending on their particular experiences and mindset make the mistake of trying to assess the value of things in Scientology without starting with the premise that it's basic purpose is abusive. We can demonstrate that things developed by inherently abusive people and systems can be beneficial but the destructive costs must be weighed against it, the original source of the development must be recognized, use of the development must not contribute to the abusive system that created it, and people need to be protected from the abuse. Communist Chinese goods are inseparable from our economy. Because it is so institutionalized it is difficult to avoid. The IRS has also institutionalized Scientology. They have legitimized it and deliberately made it a part of our society. It makes it harder to avoid but that doesn't stop us from knowing it's true nature.

    We live in an imperfect world where advancements are made out of necessity which is often inspired by conflict. It isn't realistic to expect that all beneficial advancements be created in some ethical bubble or those advancements would always be used ethically.

    I have little doubt that there are things that LRH said and did that could be isolated into "what would appear to be" a beneficial system but they are so hopelessly interwoven with conflicting doctrine and behavior that what would be left wouldn't be Scientology and like Chinese drywall it can't be trusted because the original motivation isn't ethical. Even he spoke about how sociopaths instinctively know how to blend in with society. Hubbard told people what they wanted to hear. To be honest about the subject, Scientology has to be taken as a whole and the central motivation and goal of it was not spiritual freedom - it was control.

    So yes, Scientology does offer a workable technology and it can be studied and a system of control.
    Operating DB and DagwoodGum like this.
  17. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on


    I suppose since I have been declared and already lost my eternity, there is no longer any reason I cannot reveal the contents of a CONFIDENTIAL BRIEFING that I had about "....a thetan's higher self" as he moves "up the line" to "full OT".

    It was quite an impressive presentation with music, lighting effects and a compelling PowerPoint presentation, addressed to me the being.

    SUMMARY OF CONFIDENTIAL BRIEFING: LRH did in fact do extensive research on the Eastern concept of "the higher self" and in doing so discovered the reason that man has failed in his 5000 year search for the way to attain that higher spiritual realm. That's when they unveiled (from within a dark velvet draping) a heavy glass showcase that was well lit within. Inside there were three shelves of IAS lapel pins, the smallest gold plated ones on the bottom shelf---larger more ornate 14K ones on the middle shelf and gargantuan diamond encrusted ornate pins on the top shelf. Ron's wholetrack research revealed the breakthrough stable datum that "...a being's beingness determines their doingness and havingness--thus in order to "have" all your postulates come true, one need only assume a higher level of beingness. That's when the minister giving the briefing suggested that I take a look at the price tags on some of the highest status pins and thus immediately connect to my "higher self" today. Making things even more exciting was that they r-factored me that I had been pre-approved for a revolving line of credit with the church and would waive interest payments for the first 3 months if I took advantage of the HIGHER SELF FINANCING FLEX ACCOUNT today. Naturally, I chose the largest lapel pin (6" in diameter) that had a multitude of clustered diamonds forming the words "I AM SPIRITUAL!"

    ps: I felt quite thrilled at the price because they told me that a jeweler had appraised that piece of magnificent jewelry at "certainly over a million dollars, quite likely priceless!" At a later point in time when my car was repossessed and I lost my house due to foreclosure, I was forced to temporarily pawn my pin so that I didn't have to live on the street. The pawn shop owner asked me how much I wanted to borrow against the pin and I told him that I had paid $100,000 for it and only needed to borrow $5000 just for a few days or so until I could make it go right to flourish and prosper using my higher-self's postulates. He looked at me very strangely, probably due to a lack of mass on the OT concepts I was originating. In any case, he inspected the diamond clusters using his jeweler's loupe and then said he couldn't loan me anything on it because they were not real diamonds, just synthetic cubic zirconia of no value. I grabbed my IAS higher-self pin back and r-factored him that he was an SP and he was going to die alone, in pain, in the dark. Then as I left the pawn shop, I smiled to myself with knowingness that I had just avoided going PTS to a merchant of chaos.
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
  18. Balthasar

    Balthasar Patron Meritorious

    Hey Veda, such a version would be uninspiring, wouldn't it? :)
  19. Teanntás

    Teanntás Silver Meritorious Patron

    I like what Lynne McTaggart is doing - experiment and keep experimenting and publishing the results. Could Hubbard have done this? - probably not because he was 'the only one' who knew it all.

  20. F.Bullbait

    F.Bullbait Oh, a wise guy,eh?