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Anonsparrow FDA E-Meter Petition

Discussion in 'Legal and Government Actions Involving Scientology' started by paradox, May 15, 2011.

  1. paradox

    paradox ab intra silentio vera

    A quick search didn't show this info posted at ESMB. Per the source site, docs were posted March 31st (see snapshot below).

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2011
  2. MostlyLurker

    MostlyLurker Patron Meritorious

    Nice.
    Are metered interviews and mandatory security checks also a religious activity?
    I don't think so.
     
  3. Mystic

    Mystic Crusader

    This could end up being very bloody interesting. Not only is the piece of shit called Church of Scientology at risk in the matter, the idiot FreekZone is using eeeekmeters illegally.
     
  4. paradox

    paradox ab intra silentio vera

    Yep. I'd encourage everyone to read the PDF, it's not long. Another snippet from Anonsparrow's petition:

     
  5. Mark A. Baker

    Mark A. Baker Sponsor

    Been to confession lately? :whistling:


    Mark A. Baker
     
  6. The FDA states that no one is allowed to make any claims that an E-Meter could diagnose, prevent or treat any health condition, I do not think using an E-Meter to induce adverse medical conditions such as insanity is covered, so as far as I can tell they are not breaking the law.

    ---------- Post added at 06:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:29 PM ----------

    I was a Catholic for over 20 years I was never once forced to be interrogated and no one ever used a lie detector to verify my answers to any scripted questions, if you think Hubbard's standard tech of digging up dirt and collecting data on his followers is the same as a confessional practiced by various sects of Christianity, you really do not understand the concept of confession.
     
  7. paradox

    paradox ab intra silentio vera

    You're probably right about the insanity issue. However, the various fleazone sects/splinter-groups are not covered by religious context - I don't believe any of them have been recognized as a religion or religious group have they? Self-asserted claims of "independence" or still being $cientologists notwithstanding.

    Also, as the petition points out the Cof$ or any practitioner using an e-meter is violating the judgement by not providing the required notice "Any and all items of written, printed, or graphic matter which directly or indirectly refers (sic) to the E-meter or to Dianetics and/or Scientology and/or auditing or processing shall not be further used or distributed unless and until the item shall bear the following prominent printed warning permanently affixed to said item on the outside front cover or on the title page in letters no smaller than 11-point leaded type: ' Warning: The device known as a Hubbard Electrometer, or E-meter, used in auditing, a process of Scientology and Dianetics, is not medically or scientifically useful for the diagnosis, treatment or prevention of any disease. It is not medically or scientifically capable of improving the health or bodily functions of anyone.' "

    I think, too, that the ordered wording of the stickers is not used but has been altered by the Cof$?

    They also violate the mandate that "Each E-meter shall bear the following warning, printed in 11-point leaded type, permanently affixed to the front of the E-meter so that it is clearly visible when the Emeter is used, sold or distributed ...."
     
  8. As far as the cult goes it's a no-brainer, their recruiters are using them to diagnose stress in humans, stress is a medical condition. If the Free Zone starts setting up Free Stress Test Tables to troll for fresh meat, then they too will be in clear violation of this FDA order.
     
  9. degraded being

    degraded being Sponsor

    Is the emeter used at narconon before, during or after"...... Attest? Checking for PTSness and all the other incidentals that crop up?

    Shouldn't be, if narconon is officially "not connected" with the "religion" of scientology which uses the emeter in it's scams.

    If it is, no need to even wait for the petition. Right?
     
  10. Pooks

    Pooks MERCHANT OF CHAOS

    I had no idea Sparrow was taking this on. Good for him!

    Sparrow you truly rock!
     
  11. paradox

    paradox ab intra silentio vera

    True. Maybe I'm not reading it correctly, but seems to me that anyone using an e-meter outside the Cof$ is liable for violation because they are not recognized as a religion or religious group (outside of the Cof$ itself). That would include ALL independents, fleazoners, or whoever outside the officially recognized Cof$. Including Marty and friends. I doubt that just because they may self-claim the label of $cientologist that it would hold up since, legally, I should think that label would only apply to those in good standing according to the records of their legally recognized "church," i.e. Cof$.

    So, yeah, makes me wonder if this wouldn't, or couldn't, be used to legally confiscate all meters from anyone auditing outside the sanction of the Cof$ itself. At least within the United States. Or am I missing something?

    Also wondering now if any other countries have similar rulings with regard to e-meter use.

    A certain CLXII I've been reading about here-and-there also comes to mind, particularly when visiting the US, e.g. at Customs.

    Would seem that anyone other than an ordained, card carrying minister of the official Cof$ would be at risk for confiscation and/or other penalties. :confused2: For that matter, didn't OSA use this in one variation or another, amongst other methods of course, to close down the Santa Barbara AAC?
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2011
  12. Mark A. Baker

    Mark A. Baker Sponsor

    Confessional within the catholic church serves a similar purpose to a 'sec check'. Notice the power of an EO within the Co$ to absolve the parishioner. :angel: Not that that carries much weight. Further, according to the catholic church's dogma your eternity literally does depend upon observing the sacrament of confession.

    The emeter is certainly not a lie detector, although similar technology is used in such devices. It perpetuates a misconception to so define it. However you are correct that the catholic church has never called for the use of biofeedback devices. One may speculate if the technology had been available early enough, back when the church was less impotent in matters of temporal power, if such would have been adopted. I'm inclined to believe yes as the christian religion has a very dark & ugly history, much of it having originated within the dogma & traditions of the catholic church. However, with regard to catholic confession & biofeedback, such thoughts are simply idle speculation at this point.

    Nor has the catholic church had the means, for many years now, to coerce participants to participate in the sacrament of confession. They can do little more than exert simple social pressure and withhold the right of participation in other church sacraments as a means to persuade. Yet that was not always the case, either. There were times when stiff penalties were dealt out to those who failed to comply with church mandates. Of course, 'things are all better' now and general threats such as excommunication are less frequently invoked. They are also much less frequently taken with any degree of seriousness by anyone other than office holders within the catholic church. One more reason not to push the matter to the extreme. :D

    Strictly speaking, the Co$ lacks the power of coercion also with regard to 'sec checks' & 'confessionals'. Nor can it truly do much more than the catholics can, although the Co$ is often quite a bit uglier in the way they communicate their demands. There was a period in the '80s in which so-called 'gang bang sec checks' were common enough. Still, those were never 'on policy' but were the result of brute thuggery by the takeover crowd in the CMO. Moreover, parishioners can refuse to participate in 'sec checks' & 'confessions', though not without consequences. And yes there at least at present, the Co$ is quicker to show its teeth than the catholics are. :)

    My point is there are more similarities between the Co$ and the catholic church than many are uncomfortable in acknowledging. They aren't the 'same', but neither are they 'completely different'. Among these similarities is the institution of 'confession'.

    IMHO, I strongly suspect this was intentional on LRH's part. I doubt it was due to anything beyond his prior familiarity with that organization, its structures, its rites, its practices, & its traditions. Still, maybe he was intentionally playing off of the 'group engram'. Wouldn't be the first time he sought to manipulate others through the intentional resort to irrational group behaviors (aka 'group engrams'). :coolwink:

    Of course the catholicism with which LRH was most familiar was that of the church prior to Vatican II. VII didn't happen until more than a decade after LRH had started his own religion. Additionally, catholicism was never a dominant form of christianity in the u.s.. And during Hubbard's early life its practitioners were still subject to discriminatory practices by members of protestant groups. So there was no need for Hubbard to draw too close a parallel between catholic practices and those of the Co$.

    But if you think that the practices are 'completely different' and bear no similarity to each other, then no, I don't agree with you, not at all. :no:


    Mark A. Baker
     
  13. Yeah I think we already knew that.
     
  14. Royal Prince Xenu

    Royal Prince Xenu Trust the Psi Corps.

    It would be nice if such description restricted the use of the meter to 'auditing', meaning that as soon as someone says, "I am not auditing you," the use of the meter is now illegal.
     
  15. AnonKat

    AnonKat Crusader

    That infringes upon peoples freedom
     
  16. MostlyLurker

    MostlyLurker Patron Meritorious

    Not connected to a lie detector machine, recently. Confessionals are religious. Security checks are something else.
     
  17. AnonKat

    AnonKat Crusader

    An E-Meter is NOT a Lie-detector. It measures galvanistic skin response due to upset or even arousal

    It is a Galvanistic Skin response Meter wich flaw is that the the way you grasp the cans can vary the result.

    It is NOT a Lie detector. It does not detect lies.

    But when you are an easily foolerd Cult Member you may THINK it is a lie detector
     
  18. degraded being

    degraded being Sponsor


    It may very well be that using it when they have said "I am not auditing you" is illegal. Depending on precisely how permission to use it was granted and legalised.
    It was for scientology counselling wasn't it? And counselling is referred to as auditing and so if it is stated that the victim is not being audited then technically they may have broken the law. I do not think this is far fetched at all. It depends on what the emeter has been allowed for, and whether or not "I am not auditing you" interviews can be proven to *not* be counselling, which they aren't.
    As I see it. All of this may be proveable using the cults own documents -bulletins and policy.
     
  19. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    By that standard protestants aren't christians.
     
  20. If Jesus copyrighted and trademarked the term Christian and created a fake navy to enforce the protection of this copyright and trademark, you would be correct. There is nothing stopping anyone from setting up shop as a distributor of Christianity in any form they like, whereas Hubbard went to great lengths to attack and destroy anyone trying to do this with Scientology.