Argument for doing a submission & relevant info (thread title change, June 9th)

[Carmel]

EDIT: Changed title of thread, on request - Thread now has relevant and maybe helpful info on submissions, as well as argument for any and all to do one.
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This whole inquiry/submissions thing has really pissed me off. Not because of any extra workload or anything, but because of the lack of response.

Every day I've been in contact with or contacting people about submissions. I've been met with either no response, a negative response or responses like "I wasn't planning on doing a submission" or "I'm thinking about maybe doing one".

I just don't get this and I've been getting infuriated by it.

Since Xen first addressed Parliament and called for an inquiry into Scn, the accolades for Nick X and "the ozzies" have been numerous and on going, from Anons, ESMB, and the wider critic community. But then now, when it's come to the time, when we are needing a single submission from everyone to back it up, the vast majority aren't interested, or think that it has nothing to do with them. Why?

I've fluctuated from feelings of "you're all a bunch of liars, who've just been pretending to care" (which I know isn't true), to thinking "how the fuck can this be?" I've wondered what I'm not seeing or getting with this one. I don't understand why anyone who cares about the harm that the CofS does, wouldn't jump at this particular opportunity to help make a difference, especially when it's needed.

I'm finding it a constant source of upset/frustration/anger, that without being persuaded on a one on one basis, most who I have spoken or chatted with, *haven't* been intent on doing a submission, and obviously 'one on one' isn't very practical.

With all the "yahoos" we got back in November and since, I thought it was a *given* that the majority of people here on ESMB and elsewhere, would just naturally want to back up what's going on when they had the chance and when we requested it, but not so.

I don't understand how people could get excited about an inquiry, but then expect an inquiry committee to come up with findings and recommendations in our favour, if that committee doesn't get corroborating data (in part or full) and/or opinion in volume, which would demonstrate and warrant the need for further action. What's the point of having an inquiry, if others don't step forward to some degree and give at least something? What would the committee have to work with, besides the inevitable number of submissions which they'll get from Scientologists?

Crikey, I don't like having to *sell* anyone on this, nor like the idea of manipulating people into doing submissions, but kheerissst, 'desperate times call for desperate measures'. As unpopular as this post may be, I'm posting it as a last ditch effort, while there's still a week for a change of heart and still time to get submissions in.

 

[Doom]

Those that know you understand and I am proud of you for your integrity on these matters.
Shredder and I love ya and we wouldnt be here without you.

Simple write a submission if you are not already.

 

[imnotafraidanymore]

Hey Carmel,

Good post and I think it is well called for, I have written and rewritten my submission several times now trying to get it right. I am struggling on one point that noone can seem to give me an answer on.

There are notes around saying we cannot attack their beliefs. Where does that point lay. I mean the best example i can give on what Scientologists think about gays is throught my story, stories I have collected of others and from the writings of LRH. Is ok then ok to add these to the submission showing this is why they act like they do because it is/was in their teachings?

I really want to get this right so that the submission presents well.

 

[Carmel]

<snip>
There are notes around saying we cannot attack their beliefs. Where does that point lay. I mean the best example i can give on what Scientologists think about gays is throught my story, stories I have collected of others and from the writings of LRH. Is ok then ok to add these to the submission showing this is why they act like they do because it is/was in their teachings?
<snip>

To what I've bolded, yeah sure!

If scios just believed that homosexualty was fucked, then ya wouldn't necessarily address it. However, their belief (based on the teachings) that it *is*, leads to persecution of homosexuals, and that is extremely relevant. Go for it!

 

[Illegal Alien]

Hey Carmel, I am with you on this one.

I maybe going out on a limb here but perhaps some do not think that this Inquiry will do anything.
I mean the Church could dodge and PR and of course they could work together with other groups and perhaps the end result of the "Public Benefits Test" just causes more "DEV-T" for the Church and its business as usual.

BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How did we get this far?

We did it by getting stories out there getting the truth told.

For those not confident on this "Public Benefits Test" think of it this way.

Send in your opinions, experiences and what ever you want even if we do not get this "Test" those stories and opinions could spark a different chain of events that lead to further investigation.

THIS IS IMPORTANT AND HEY IF YOU ARE UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THE CHURCH STRONG ARM KEEP IT CONFIDENTIAL.

 

[Krautfag]

Showing why they act crazy and destructive isn't really of much importance, honestly, what politician cares about Scieno teachings or dead Elron?

Just point out the nasty, unlawful ACTS that they are doing and insist that the laws be amended, so that the tax payer doesnt fund the evil deeds. Thats about it.

Just go along the line of:

"Bill is good, because CoS is bad.
I was in and saw this and that happen, thats why they are bad.
Please make the Bill into law, because I as an Australian tax payer dont wanna fund that shit.
Sincerely"

Did that help a bit?

 

[FoTi]

Yeh, don't worry about what the beliefs are. Just cite what they do that is criminal, nasty and abusive....that's why they shouldn't have the tax benefit. It's not about the beliefs. It's about their evil deeds.

 

[Carmel]

Showing why they act crazy and destructive isn't really of much importance, honestly, what politician cares about Scieno teachings or dead Elron?

Just point out the nasty, unlawful ACTS that they are doing and insist that the laws be amended, so that the tax payer doesnt fund the evil deeds. Thats about it.

Just go along the line of:

"Bill is good, because CoS is bad.
I was in and saw this and that happen, thats why they are bad.
Please make the Bill into law, because I as an Australian tax payer dont wanna fund that shit.
Sincerely"

Did that help a bit?

And if not an Australian tax payer?

For those who are not Aussie tax payers - Maybe..... "I as a former Scientologist (or "I as someone aware of the abuse at the hands of the CofS") am in favour of your government implementing the "public benefit test" (or some sort of regulation), so you will no longer essentially be funding the harm being done by cults such as the CofS who use religious cloaking for your support." (or whatever).

We are wanting submissions from all over the world. Yes, we want submissions from Aussie tax payers, but there are more reasons than one why submissions from outside of Oz will also have impact.

 

[WildKat]

abuses

The reason I haven't done a submission is because I have not been a witness to actual abuses or illegalities. I'm sure they don't want "hearsay" evidence.

There are books documenting the abuses, like Nancy Many, Marc Headley, Jeff Hawkins, and all the books that have been published years ago. Can these be entered into the testimony?

I have issues with some of the practice and philosophy, especially the OT levels. But I don't think it is the business of government to look into wacko philosophies, or to legislate against them. I don't want a government that can do that, frankly. They just need to focus on the abuse and the illegalities. And plenty of people ARE witnesses to those.

I'm just not one of them.

 

[Panda Termint]

LOL, Carmel. "Bitchier than normal"?
How can we answer that?
It's like a "Do you still beat your wife?" Q, whether I say yes or no it still tells you that I think you've been a "bitch".
I don't.

Roll on the 19th June.

 

[Magoo]

Carmel,

I can *totally*understand why this would be frustrating!

This whole inquiry/submissions thing has really pissed me off. Not because of any extra workload or anything, but because of the lack of response.

Well, if it's any help at all, I did send mine in and am continuing to ask others
here in the States to do so, too. I'll up the

Knock out the <<<<people saying this and
Make sure everyone I know is helping you all:



:megaphone::megaphone:

And then we'll all party! Once it's D O N E.

My best to ya,

Tory/Magoo

 

[Panda Termint]

The reason I haven't done a submission is because I have not been a witness to actual abuses or illegalities. I'm sure they don't want "hearsay" evidence.

There are books documenting the abuses, like Nancy Many, Marc Headley, Jeff Hawkins, and all the books that have been published years ago. Can these be entered into the testimony?

I have issues with some of the practice and philosophy, especially the OT levels. But I don't think it is the business of government to look into wacko philosophies, or to legislate against them. I don't want a government that can do that, frankly. They just need to focus on the abuse and the illegalities. And plenty of people ARE witnesses to those.

I'm just not one of them.

But, Wildkat, surely you are well aware of the fact that the CofS is not a charitable organisation which is of benefit to the public?
Maybe you've seen/witnessed something which confirms this? That is as important as documenting abuse.

 

[FoTi]

The reason I haven't done a submission is because I have not been a witness to actual abuses or illegalities. I'm sure they don't want "hearsay" evidence.

There are books documenting the abuses, like Nancy Many, Marc Headley, Jeff Hawkins, and all the books that have been published years ago. Can these be entered into the testimony?

I have issues with some of the practice and philosophy, especially the OT levels. But I don't think it is the business of government to look into wacko philosophies, or to legislate against them. I don't want a government that can do that, frankly. They just need to focus on the abuse and the illegalities. And plenty of people ARE witnesses to those.

I'm just not one of them.

Wildcat, do you think the CoS should have tax exempt status as a charity?

If not, why not? Just speak your piece and do a submission. It can't hurt anything and it might help.

 

[Free to shine]

I absolutely agree that as many submissions as possible need to be done, and now. I understand the frustration at the seeming lack of response though I have a feeling more have been sent than is known as yet, I hope so. Submissions don't have to be long or complicated, they just need to show that people support this.

I have found it a little more difficult to do than I thought and from feedback from others I am not alone in this. I've read and re-read threads and got myself into a spin as to the correct approach. I think it's because there has been so much posted (not just here) and some of it is contrary, like yes write your story, no don't write them, and the legal aspects of charities etc.

So my conclusion is to keep it simple, it is about this Bill, not the history of scientology. Experiences that show how extremely uncharitable this bloody cult is, and why that is not an acceptable thing to the Australian taxpayer. So I am just writing from the heart, it won't be a novel but I hope it will really communicate to the Senators that read it.

Please please do submissions....we have waited so long for people to listen and now they are......

 

[Carmel]

The reason I haven't done a submission is because I have not been a witness to actual abuses or illegalities. I'm sure they don't want "hearsay" evidence.

There are books documenting the abuses, like Nancy Many, Marc Headley, Jeff Hawkins, and all the books that have been published years ago. Can these be entered into the testimony?

I have issues with some of the practice and philosophy, especially the OT levels. But I don't think it is the business of government to look into wacko philosophies, or to legislate against them. I don't want a government that can do that, frankly. They just need to focus on the abuse and the illegalities. And plenty of people ARE witnesses to those.

I'm just not one of them.

But, Wildkat, surely you are well aware of the fact that the CofS is not a charitable organisation which is of benefit to the public?
Maybe you've seen/witnessed something which confirms this? That is as important as documenting abuse.

Wildcat, do you think the CoS should have tax exempt status as a charity?

If not, why not? Just speak your piece and do a submission. It can't hurt anything and it might help.

Panda and FoTi have answered your question, but in addition to what they've said...

The committee will look at opinions as well as facts. *Numbers* of opinions will help substantiate the facts which others can and will give (obviously though, we're after a few more detailed submissions).

Numbers of submissions, if even only stating opinion that the CofS shouldn't have tax exempt status and the reason why, *will* add weight to those which contain detailed facts.

 

[Arthur Dent]

According to the Senate website they have 10 submissions posted. Can this be right? Any sense of this being accurate / inaccurate, Carmel? I would think there would be hundreds. I can't imagine that there are more that are just not posted. Perhaps there will be a deluge of submissions on the last day!

You don't have to have first hand eye witness accounting of a major crime in order to make a submission. As a taxpayer in Australia or elsewhere else you can submit your reasons why public funds should not support the cofs activities whereas those activities do not benefit the public at large as there is no charity. "Donations" are expected for exchange of service to the person who has donated only. There are so many things you can raise your voice about concerning how scientology abuses it's members through ruthless regging, forced disconnections, abortions, etc. Think hard about all your "inconvenient" moments in scn and look at what activity was behind it. Money motivation, power, political positioning, handling "black PR," not being allowed freedom of speech.

Maybe some people are afraid and got cold feet, To those lurkers I say: You can post anonymously. If you're afraid you will go back in the church and have to do amends, well....please wake up. You will. And you will never be free again. Fear of retaliation? Post it anonymously and do it so more people are not abused. You are in a moment of history. This isn't all "going to go away" and everything return to normal nice-nice in the churchie-poo. It is moving forward. If the church is still standing then it will have to reform at least some of its evil ways and this will be a benefit to people. You have nothing to lose and no reason not to post a submission!

This bill isn't the end all for scn. but it can be the beginning of some controls put in that start making it behave.

 

[Carmel]

LOL, Carmel. "Bitchier than normal"?
How can we answer that?
It's like a "Do you still beat your wife?" Q, whether I say yes or no it still tells you that I think you've been a "bitch".
I don't.

Thanks Panda, but if not bitchy, then I sure as hell have been cranky, and "wrong targeting" ta boot.

Roll on the 19th June.

Bloody oath!

 

[Carmel]

According to the Senate website they have 10 submissions posted. Can this be right? Any sense of this being accurate / inaccurate, Carmel? <snip>

It's right as far as those accepted and published go. By tomorrow we should see a lot more, as the ones done on the weekend should be up by then.

Gotta go now, will respond to the rest of your post a wee bit later.

 

[Anonycat]

It's right as far as those accepted and published go. By tomorrow we should see a lot more, as the ones done on the weekend should be up by then.

Gotta go now, will respond to the rest of your post a wee bit later.

Yes, I think the numbers will start showing very soon. But to those who haven't yet sent one ... DO IT!

 

[Emma]

I think that only the Aussie ones will be posted (could be wrong though).