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Atack: What David Mayo told me about L. Ron Hubbard, Scientology, and the upper levels

Discussion in 'Tony Ortega' started by RSS Feed, Feb 19, 2018.

  1. RSS Feed

    RSS Feed RSS Feeder Bot

    There is a new post up at the Underground Bunker

    Atack: What David Mayo told me about L. Ron Hubbard, Scientology, and the upper levels

    [David Mayo]

    After we brought the news that prominent Scientology figure David Mayo had died last year in New Zealand, there was a pretty huge reaction from many former Scientologists, as well as a lot of discussion of his legacy. One person who had lengthy talks with Mayo after he left the church was historian [...]

    [​IMG][David Mayo]

    After we[.......]

    Continue reading...
    pineapple, Enthetan and Type4_PTS like this.
  2. ILove2Lurk

    ILove2Lurk Lisbeth Salander

    Many paragraphs in the article don't make sense to me. Like this one:

    "When I spoke to David in 2013 – again for about three hours – he told me a tale I hadn’t heard before. He said that he had realized that Hubbard was insane, just as soon as he read OT III back in 1968 (he was at the Edinburgh Advanced Organization that first delivered the course to paying members in that year). He told me from that time onward, his intention had been to liberate people from Scientology, and that he believed he had been responsible for 2,000 people leaving."

    If that were my genuine cognition, I'd have run as fast as I could in the opposite
    direction. David then goes on to invent OT 5, open the AAC based on the same
    underlying tech, and deconstructs said tech to co-write a Metapsychology book.

    To be clear, no disrespect meant to David at all.

    I think the article is poorly written, does not hang together, and has many holes.
    Hoped for a bit more after reading the (teaser) headline.

    Looking through several people's "mental prisms" at what is now ancient history,
    which has been thoroughly lied about, altered, and hidden so many times, won't
    spill out too much clarity, I guess. For me anyways.

    If anyone else grasped more out of it, I'd be glad to listen. :yes:
    Otherwise, I'll stick to my knitting. :shrug:

    PS: Read article a second time and have the exact same opinion. I like Jon's book
    and other writings typically. This one is very weak.
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2018
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  3. pineapple

    pineapple Silver Meritorious Patron

    I think when we look back on the time when we were in scn, we tend to downplay how much we were "true believers," and credit ourselves with more insight into scn's failings than we actually had at the time. In present time, we see that a lot of it was nuts. Looking back, we see the past from our current perspective. When we remember what we thought then, we superimpose our current thinking on that memory to some degree.

    I'm reminded of Bent Corydon's statement that he was "never really a scientologist," he was just a businessman. Yet there is video of Bent in 1988 saying that when he was in scn he was a true believer. (I posted it here once, somewhere.) And from what I remember of Bent, at the time he was as sincere as anyone -- highly sincere.

    Maybe when David saw the OT III materials in 1968, a suspicion (quickly suppressed) crossed his mind that Hubbard was insane, along with a desire to minimize the importance of this crazy material and steer people away from it towards the less obviously objectionable parts of scn. Years later, after having lots of time out of the repressive, Hubbard-worshipping atmosphere of CoS, David realizes that it was crazy, and when he looks back on 1968, he says "I realized then that Hubbard was insane."

    I do this myself. I think, "I realized Hubbard was a con artist when I saw the Tony Hitchman interview." Well, why did I stay another 6 years, then? Actually, a suspicion crossed my mind at the time, but I quickly suppressed it and thought about the workability of the tech I was familiar with, and that's what kept me going. Now that I've completely renounced scn, I can say, "I realized then that Ron was a con artist," but at the time it was a brief and fleeting realization indeed.
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2018
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  4. IWantOffThisTrain

    IWantOffThisTrain Eternal Optimist

    Thank you! I was really excited to read this (I've been secretly hoping David left "something" that will give those still in or UTR that final nudge to get out and dry up some of the whale money) and I usually enjoy Atacks writing but this was hard to understand. I'm glad it wasnt just me...

    I still plan to take some time and go thru it again, maybe I will get a better understanding but I will be looking forward to hearing what others have to say...
    Enthetan likes this.
  5. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    I found it a bit difficult to follow also. I think
    Pineapples comment may be correct. Or possibly David
    was thinking something else other in Hubbard's behaviour than OT was crazy.Or possibly some aspect of it was skewed.

    Why don't you ask Jon to clarify? He's a really nice guy
    and very friendly and would probably be happy to clarify.

    Re OT 3 many people including myself have had good successes with it. Even though I don't believe the xenu
    story. I tend to think it works the way creative processing works. Oner might mock up ridiculous scenarios as per at least one Hubbard demo and the process, or mental exercise, is
    Koot and Enthetan like this.
  6. Out Effix

    Out Effix Out Ethics Ex Ethics Officer

    I am so appreciate the "Stupid" Threads.

    HH - these have provided many hours of entertainment...LMAO - rolling on the floor!

    Thank you.

    Now - do you have any interest in "taking up" a Hubbardism...the term....

    "Boiling off"

    As in... "the pc is boiling off"

    I just remembered that term and found it so stupid...

    So take it away HH..

    What is "boiling off" and do Wogs do it?
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2018
    lotus and Enthetan like this.
  7. phenomanon

    phenomanon Canyon

    The picture is not of David Mayo.
    Who is it?
  8. ILove2Lurk

    ILove2Lurk Lisbeth Salander

  9. FormerScn

    FormerScn Patron

    I agree completely. This is one of the most rambling articles I've ever read since getting out.

    It's like his talk with Chris Shelton - he's all over the highway, and seemingly irretrievable.

  10. Wilbur

    Wilbur Patron Meritorious

    Yes, I was also scratching my head at this one. He spends much of the article ridiculing the idea that David was the 'bird-dog in the control room'. And then effectively states that Mayo confided in him in 2013 that he WAS the bird-dog in the control room.

  11. CommunicatorIC

    CommunicatorIC @IndieScieNews on Twitter

    David Mayo's original, 1980's view that "they should have been paying attention to the ideas, 'mental image pictures' and emotions of those body thetans" is the current view of post-Scientology Spiritual Rescue Technology created by David St. Lawrence. In Spiritual Rescue Technology, one does not try to eradicate Spiritual Entities (i.e., Body Thetans) as one does in Scientology, but instead tries to communicate, and enter into a mutually beneficial relationship, with them. See:

    I guess there really isn't anything new under the sun.
  12. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    I think I grasped more out it, and I think it goes like this, and it is hard to explain.

    When Hubbard turned out his OT materials, Mayo said this is crazy. So Mayo as C/S tried to correct the tech. Because Mayo still believed in the tech, and if we connect dots on the Mayo you tube where he had the ACC where he says there is essentially no "clear" but one can become clearer, I know this is it out of sequence, but that statement basically says there is some useful stuff to scientology, or you might say it's a soft landing from the hyperbole of clear and OT by Hubbard.

    Remember we have Bill Franks and Mayo in a meeting with LRH on the Apollo about how W/H's do not cause one to blow, but ARCX's do.

    So Mayo determined to best be the savior was to gradiently get people out. Mayo couldn't just run in his eyes, he was altruist, and that's what Hubbard's rhetorical writing and lectures do, make one altruist.

    I don't think the "tech" is the brainwashing, I think the glue or brainwashing is Hubbard's rhetoric and it's in the tech if you read a HCOB. I think Mayo and Franks never knew of rhetoric used by Hubbard.

    For instance, Janis Grady was amazed that once she left Hubbard's inner circle and actually observed people in scientology orgs putting Hubbard on a pedestal, she couldn't understand why since she was with the LRH all the time and never put him on a pedestal, and yet she continued. Why?

    Because of Hubbard's rhetoric.

    dchoiceisalwaysrs likes this.
  13. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    I think the insane comment was kind of a red flag thought that one ignores.

    I remember a couple times I read something he wrote that seemed crazy - and I thought - he doesn't know what he's talking about. Then I put it aside and moved on. it wasn't enough to make me blow. Like the first LSD HCOB that he's coming across like he's in the know, and he's talking LSD in sugar cubes. Some one put him straight because the next HCOB was relevant. Or the one on getting protein and he recommends burgers - he had no idea of nutrition, yet he brags about how he fed these expeditions. Then, after I left Scientology, I read about the expedition to Puerto Rico and find out it was a disaster. None of that shit slowed me down in progressing up the bridge.

    pineapple likes this.
  14. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    in part two of the video, bingo, at the 5 minute or so mark Mayo says "I hope this is all true but I didn't personally verify it all".

    Please raise your hands if you didn't verify for yourself if there was a Clear or OT.

    I'm the first person to raise my hand, my bad,

    But actually the first person or two to raise their hands was John Campbell and Robert Heinlein.

    dchoiceisalwaysrs likes this.
  15. pineapple

    pineapple Silver Meritorious Patron

    Yes. You're told you don't have to accept anything you don't want to, that "Nothing in scn is true except what is true for you." This makes it possible to ignore the stuff that seems too outlandish and keep going. I used to think this was really cool, so not authoritarian. Now I see that this was part of the trap, because it made us tacitly accept (by suspending our critical facullties) a lot of bullshit.

    The crazier parts of scn, like OT III, continue to fascinate me. Did Hubbard really believe this shit, I wonder? (I know he's supposed to have believed BT's were real in his later days. But Incident 2? Xenu and all that?) Or was the crazy stuff somehow a part of the con, a deliberate strategy, maybe something he picked up from hypnosis? I haven't figured that out yet.

    Speaking of the Puerto Rico expedition, here's a Dec. 1950 Look Magazine article about Dianetics in which Hubbard is unusually candid about the expedition, among other things. (He admits he doesn't have a degree, for example):

    MacKenzie likes this.
  16. DagwoodGum

    DagwoodGum Squirreling Dervish

    I think I can explain a question that has arisen which is "If you had the thought that Hubbard is insane and that OT3 proves it then why did you stay"?
    Well our indoctrination would assign this thought the value of "case manifestation - thought that must be handled".
    Why? Because we'd been indoctrinated that we had case that didn't want us to go up the bridge.
    Could be reactive mind content, or actual OT3 content if one had bought in on that.
    So upon thinking "fuck, the guys is absolutely insane" one stashed it away until a time where one could "handle it" and continue up the bridge as we heard the voices calling from the examiners with "OT" success stories which said in effect "come on in, the waters fine".
    One might have quietly assigned oneself a condition of say doubt or even treason for having the thought, but one also knew that to vocalize the thought would have costly and painful consequence through hard earned experience.
    So the little Pavlov's dog inside said woof woof and we quietly got back in step and proceeded onward and made it a point to vanquish the memory of one's momentary transgression and hoped to Heaven that it would never come up in session.
    Sound familiar?
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2018
  17. DagwoodGum

    DagwoodGum Squirreling Dervish

    Tremendous observation!!
    I've even noticed myself recalling incidents, I'll call them, and berating myself with "dummy, didn't you see what was going on"? Well, in truth I did, but just not from today's experienced perspective so I shouldn't have expected myself to have reacted yesterday how I would react today.
  18. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    It appears that all my ESMB PMs from David Mayo over a span of several years have disappeared.

    Briefly, here are paraphrases of some of his messages. Now that he has passed it seems alright to make this known.

    The Introspection RD as developed by Hubbard on the Flagship was tested on one crew member who was subjected to cruel and damaging interrogation and, while presented as a "Success Story" at the time, was quietly sent off the ship. Sometime later this person starved himself to death.


    During the late 1970s, Mayo wanted to remove all evaluation from the OT levels, which meant eliminating, at least, OT 2 and OT 3.

    Hubbard shot down this idea.

    Around 1983, Hubbard C/Sed Annie Broeker on OT 3, so it appears Hubbard was still a proponent of that level.

    Many years later, Marty Rathbun - when the Xenu story was an embarrassment, and PR problem, for Independent Scientology - insisted that Hubbard had wanted to discontinue OT 3 and Miscavige had shot it down.

    This was odd - and obviously insincere - as, at the time, Rathbun was still delivering OT 3 himself. So it was an attempted PR handling by Rathbun.


    According to Mayo, around 1980, when secretly meeting with Pat Broeker, Broeker excitedly handed him a copy of the "Jesus loved little boys" OT8. Mayo took it and later threw it in the trash.

    Broeker also told him that Hubbard had been taking a variety of tranquilizers to see which one would be most effective. Apparently Hubbard had fits of anger and paranoia and these fits, potentially, were life threatening.

    It seems that Hubbard liked writing pulp fiction (circa 1980) while buzzed on happy pills.
  19. ILove2Lurk

    ILove2Lurk Lisbeth Salander

    Thank you, Veda. Much.

    I thought the Jon Atack article didn't offer too much, if anything, to the conversation, as I had commented earlier in this thread.

    On the other hand, your reveals here are quite something. Just gotta say!

    If any more tidbits from PMs or the times you spoke with David happen to percolate up, please add them to the thread. I for one really like hearing them. I'm sure others do too.

    I was hoping David would have left us a his recollections posthumously, since he had audited LRH more than any other auditor. But seems like that's not be.
    dchoiceisalwaysrs likes this.
  20. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

    IMO, hindsight is not always 20/20.
    I recommend the movie "Groundhog Day" starring Bill Murray.
    Enthetan likes this.