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Atack: What David Mayo told me about L. Ron Hubbard, Scientology, and the upper levels

Discussion in 'Tony Ortega' started by RSS Feed, Feb 19, 2018.

  1. Koot

    Koot Patron with Honors

    If memory serves, Hubbard wrote in HCOB "Blowoffs" something like " of course you can treat some one so bad that they have to leave but...!!!
    Enthetan likes this.
  2. Koot

    Koot Patron with Honors

    "and certainly one can treat people so badly that they have no choice but to leave,"
  3. DagwoodGum

    DagwoodGum Squirreling Dervish

    Hubbard has also been quoted as stating that people actually leave because of ARC-X's, but if that got out he could lose control of Scientology. He pushed the "people leave because of overts and MU's" because it was self serving and made it unlikely that people would leave if you could get them twisted inside out looking for their overts and MU's while they thought they were "routing out".
    Perhaps someone has the reference.
    Enthetan likes this.
  4. Koot

    Koot Patron with Honors

    If you are treated badly that IS an ARCX. Overts are a solution to a problem where there is a prior MU/confusion. It all is inter connected. I am not defending the church, however, the tech is pretty spot on. It is the best explanation I have found so far in this 66 yr journey for the insanity all around us.
    FoTi likes this.
  5. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    Not necessarily. :no:

    If a person being treated badly was expecting to be treated badly or believed he deserved to be treated badly then there is not necessarily any reduction in any of the three points of Hubbard's ARC triangle.

    As an example, take the INT Exec's that were in The Hole for long periods of time. While I hate to use a Hubbard term, some of them were essentially implanted with the belief that they were degraded beings and/or suppressive persons.

    When you achieve that state one often believes that the bad treatment was deserved or that they were fully responsible for the circumstances they find themselves in. In their language - they pulled it in.
  6. Koot

    Koot Patron with Honors

    Then they don't blow. But when they wake up to the BS then siyanara (pardon my spelling)
    FoTi likes this.
  7. DagwoodGum

    DagwoodGum Squirreling Dervish

    I would say that it's all a gigantic self serving con, the tatters of "spot on" window dressing is the bait. The point I was making with regard to Hubbard admitting that people don't blow for the reasons he manufactured, overts & MU's, is that he admitted he lied about that cause and admitted that people left because of ARC breaks which takes in a whole lot of territory. The lies of Scientology and the ridiculous costs ARC broke the fuck out of me and I wouldn't go back and do their shitty little courses now if they paid me the equal amount they had been charging us.
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
  8. Koot

    Koot Patron with Honors

    That is your choice, no contest there.
  9. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Let's be realistic, and not "nicey nicey."

    Hubbard's pervasive message was that people "blow" (leave) because of their "overts."

    Sure, there are "ARC breaks" (or misunderstood words) but an "ARC break" session (or "word clearing") should fix that, right?

    When an "ARC break" session (or "word clearing") doesn't do the trick, and the person still regards Hubbard's Scientology "tech" (and "applied philosophy" and "Bridge") in an uncomplimentary way - perhaps seeing it as a trap that is decorated with twinkling ornaments of (seeming) truth - would you, then, say the person really does have "overts"?
  10. Hatshepsut

    Hatshepsut Crusader

    Everyone I knew felt so much better when taking a short hiatus that they just decided to stay gone.
    FoTi, Operating DB and DagwoodGum like this.
  11. Koot

    Koot Patron with Honors

    Concerning blows, in my opinion, An ARCX session that didn't work is "being treated badly". Same goes for word clearing failures. The organization as it is in PT seems to me to be "a trap that is decorated with twinkling ornaments of (seeming) truth". I think this is by design other than LRH's. Just my opinion. I do think a person can accumulate overts in an area and want to leave, but that is not the cause of all blows. I had good gains on what auditing and training I have had. My 10 year staff experience was not a smooth one. I have been declared and off lines for 25 years or so. That does not alter my understanding of what tech I have learned.
    FoTi and Hatshepsut like this.
  12. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Could you clarify this?

  13. Koot

    Koot Patron with Honors

    A session of any type should end with an FN and at least GIs. If not, there is more to do. That is the responsibility of the auditor and CS. The PC goes into session with that expectation. There are reasons why a PC doesn't have that expectation. If that is the case, that should be perceived and handled too.(A to J etc). In short, a well handled session or word clearing should end with an FN(a real one, not an ARCX needle) and at least good indicators.(real ones). Anything less is being treated badly. Not to mention any other low toned or unethical bull shit that may occur in an org. This is just my opinion based on my experiences in Scn. I hope this clarifies.
    FoTi likes this.
  14. Cat's Squirrel

    Cat's Squirrel Gold Meritorious Patron

    Fair enough; the problem though is that the Church cannot tolerate disagreement, or "Ron being wrong", so if you have a viewpoint on something that has come up in session and that is genuinely yours and at variance with theirs you're going to have a problem with them.
  15. Koot

    Koot Patron with Honors

    I would agree. I would also like to point out that "the Church" is an organization composed of organizations composed of individuals. Each individual is it's own case(and has it's own case). Ron is and never said he was perfect. It's a big mess. I think he came up with a lot of good info concerning life here on this planet. Information that is very workable and helpful to any who would apply it.( I have no first hand experiences with anything above clear) I think Ron once wrote , "an organization reverberates from the top down." That tells me something about "the Church"
    FoTi likes this.
  16. Koot

    Koot Patron with Honors

    No doubt. Life on staff is no picnic. We will put up with a lot of discomfort to achieve a desired goal. I think there are those who take advantage of that, to the detriment of all and for some perceived gain for themselves.
  17. DagwoodGum

    DagwoodGum Squirreling Dervish

    Well yes, but as there was no diminished ARC they didn't leave because they believed they deserved to be mistreated due to their "overts".
    Had their ARC diminished substantially enough they would possibly have left.
    Possibly they had little ARC to begin with.
    But the false accusations (of having overts & MU's) leveled against them is a definite break in reality.
    People make mistakes, that's what makes them human.
    So if you hold someone over the flame and shake them down for their "overts" you'll find some and you might convince them that everything that's gone horribly wrong during their time in Scientology is their own fault.
    Depends on how mind fucked they've become.
    I'm talking about Hubbard actually admitting that he made up the entire "people only leave a subject due to their overts and MU's" bullshit and then admitting before Mayo and I forget who else that he had concocted that line of B.S. to strengthen his control over the flock.
    So as he already made that admission it's too late to put the genie back in the bottle.
    Overts don't make someone leave, just ask an S.P.
    Has Miscavidge left yet?
    Look around.
    Plenty of evidence that evil doers never flee the scene of their crimes.
    Some of them stay in Congress for many terms.
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2018
  18. FoTi

    FoTi Crusader

    I remember reading something LRH wrote about.....blows are caused by overts. Since what I saw around me in the COS were people being accused of having overts if something went wrong in their life or if they blew, I assumed the overts belonged to the person who blew. Later on I got to looking at this......blows are caused by overts,......but from what I read, LRH didn't say who's overts, so I got to thinking.....couldn't the overts belong to the COS against the one who blew......the COS ARCXing the staff or pc and the person leaving? I came to this after having auditing forced on me at AOLA....after 3 intensive, which I didn't want, (I finally agreed because I was afraid of being declared if I didn't) (which I had to pay for :pullhair: ), it was all I could do to keep from leaving town. The more they audited me, the worse the urge to leave town. It was horrible. I even wondered if the C/S was an SP. I told them if they didn't stop it, I would be running away. They tried to continue it in qual, but that didn't fly so they eventually stopped it and layed off me, never repairing it or fixing it. They just had a negative view of me from then on ... qual told me I was anti-Scientology....more shit thrown in my face because I didn't agree with their mental abuse. My idea of auditing was, one got better, not worse and it was getting worse by the day. I eventually left LA and AOLA (scared to receive any further service from them) behind and went to Flag, thinking that something was wrong at AOLA and that things would be better at Flag. I was so wrong. It was worse. I wouldn't give them their high demands of money, since I already had services paid for, but they wouldn't let me use them without giving them thousands of dollars more, so I hung around Clearwater for about 10 years thinking that eventually things would get better at Flag. Wrong again. I began seeing the horseshit being pulled on other people on OT6 and 7.....that really opened my eyes and I began to talk to others about it. Flag didn't like that so they offered me a refund, redid my account and charged me full price for past services and gave me back a pitance, to get rid of me. I took it. By this time I was terrified by the COS after what I saw happen to others and just accepted whatever they were willing to give me and then moved away from Clearwater......never to return again. Who's overts?

    Aren't most of the people who have been leaving the COS, leaving because the COS has been committing overts on them?

    I understand a person can blow because of their own overts, but it seems to me it might be because of the abuse/overts committed on them. No?
    ThetanExterior likes this.
  19. DagwoodGum

    DagwoodGum Squirreling Dervish

    Actually they are wanting to leave because of that flow of overts, the COS upon them.
    I firmly believe that once one buys into that the only reason one leaves a field of study, in this case the COS and its materials, is because they themselves have overts and MU's, one becomes conditioned to NOT LEAVE lest they attract all form of negative (and costly) attention in the form of sec checks and word clearing.
    Not to mention the hit that one would take to one's reputation to be seen in such a light as a person carrying enormous guilt and lack of understanding of the tenets of Scientology by one's clam friends.
    By the end of that barrage of negating attention one is left too baffled and turned inside out to be certain of one's desire to leave anything and just rolls over and plays dead for them while remaining "in" which is and was their sole intention all along.
    There you have it, buying into Hubbard's self admitted lies on this subject of overts and MU's is the main cause why people stay in and or pretend to while making no real progress up the grade chart for decades.
    There you have it, there's not a whole lot more to the root cause of staying trapped in the trap when one really does know better deep down.
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2018
    Hatshepsut likes this.
  20. DagwoodGum

    DagwoodGum Squirreling Dervish

    I would say that he now has experience and is therefore capable of and justified in modifying his views on Scientology, and revoking his allegiance if his experience has taught him that it would be for the best.
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2018
    FoTi likes this.