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"Bad Apples or Bad Barrels?" by fishdaddy

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by VaD, Nov 21, 2010.

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  1. VaD

    VaD Gold Meritorious Patron

    Great post by Jeff on his blog:

  2. Stat

    Stat Gold Meritorious Patron

    Right on.

    For anyone who had a first-hand and sufficiently long experience of being in, it's nearly impossible to disagree with what Jeff says in his amazing book and his blog. Very good post/thread, Vadim. Thank you.
  3. VaD

    VaD Gold Meritorious Patron

  4. VaD

    VaD Gold Meritorious Patron

    Now there is also very illustrative of "Lucifer Effect" movie that came out this year called the Experiment.
    Here is the trailer:
    Film was released directly to DVD on Sept. 21, 2010.
  5. paradox

    paradox ab intra silentio vera

    Last edited: Nov 21, 2010
  6. VaD

    VaD Gold Meritorious Patron

  7. paradox

    paradox ab intra silentio vera

  8. VaD

    VaD Gold Meritorious Patron

  9. VaD

    VaD Gold Meritorious Patron

    The Why is in the System

    I agree wholeheartedly with both Jeff's and Just Bill's analyses.

    Jeff says:
    Let's see word "system" first:
    We, humans, like systems, don't we?
    Our bodies (and sometimes, minds - if treated properly, and free of BS) work like a clockwork.
    Now, those are Natural systems.

    What happens if a person (or a group of people) create a System (philosophical, spiritual, political, religious)?
    They are often believable, i.e. humans like them and believe in them as "THE way to go" (or, as with Scn, "THE ONLY WAY"). Or have to follow them out of fear and repressions (as dissidents in USSR).

    I call these systems man-made, (or some more directly artificial) as opposed to Natural systems.

    Some more word clearing here:
    ... more definitions there if you like

    Man-made (artificial) systems are likely to become a cult.

    And the WHY is in the System itself.
    In other words, it's the System that's fallacious.

    The System comes from The Source who is human (Hubbard, Zimbardo, Milgram...), i.e. from the one who set up rules, roles and channels.

    But where is the Why? No it's not in The Source. It's in the heads of those who adopted the System (believe in it, want to follow it, or in love with it, enforce it, must obey to it).

    Hope message above isn't confusing.
  10. Jachs

    Jachs Gold Meritorious Patron

    Very appropriate posting,

    i thought it was Miscavige ,

    but ive adopted the same thoughts,

    that its A Military Organisation with military rules and culture in charge

    of a religious philosophy, with willing soldiers akin to Mao?

    The Control of China and grace of Tibet Monks dont mix, try being both at the same time.:unsure:

    Never work.
    Arthur or Martha?

    Decloak the SO.
  11. Stat

    Stat Gold Meritorious Patron

    Mental systems is not a good concept, the way I see it.

    "In my opinion, the best advice anyone can give or get on repairing the mind damage from Scn would be to follow nature. When you fall down and scrape yourself the body knows to form a protective scab. And without doing anything, the body knows how to heal itself---if you don't pick at it or try to handle it. Same with the mind. leave it alone. It will heal all by itself. Don't prepcheck it and don't pick at it if you don't want scars." - HelluvaHoax!
  12. VaD

    VaD Gold Meritorious Patron

    just so you know

    Some of my posts lately haven't been directed at Scn (Co$, DM, Hubbard, Scn fallacies,...).

    That's because now I see everything in and around Scn (abuses, harrassements, molestations, and - even criticizing Scn, Hubbard, Marty, DM... on ESMB) as an example of a cult and its effects (reverberations, ripples that keep coming up in a person's life).

    I have another perspective now. Human Nature, it is. Reality, it is.
    Human Nature/Reality VS. Cults/Man-made systems.

    Any cult's target audience are the gullible ones.
    And, unfortunately, many-many of humans are gullible (I'd say 95%, but you won't agree, and it's ok).
    Thus, cults prosper.
    But who would care if cults would have harvested only "bad seeds"? - Would you?
    I wouldn't. I would call it "natural selection" and leave it at that.

    What's bad about cults is that they remove from society and Reality many of the best of us, many capable beings (who would, otherwise, win in natural selection contest).

    That's why I'm very interested in effective ways of "preventive deprogramming" for our loved ones and for capable beings so we are together, leaving cults by the board.
  13. VaD

    VaD Gold Meritorious Patron

    It's a culture bred by the Source.

    DM is the most brainwashed cultie (I said it few months back on Jeff's blog).
    Recent evidence: here was some thread about Jesse Prince pointing out to Marty's blog that DM had never raised his hand on someone until he got direct orders in writing from LRH to spit on David Mayo and John Aczel, and intimidate them. Then he got some more orders in writing to punch, and he punched.
    And - there it went.
    You might say it was DM's "origination". To me, it wasn't. He was following LRH orders. Per the policy he has been right. (I'm sure he still has this policy in his mind as his guideline when he abuses staff members).

    It wasn't that he himself introduced that system of physical punishment and humiliation of others.
    DM, being to-the-letter follower of what LRH said, has had every right (in his head) to do what LRH said to do.

    And, believe it or not, I understand him. I see his viewpoint. I can see myself in his place.
    Not that I would ever want to be in his place, but I see him as "the most dedicated to LRH out of those who ever have been"
  14. VaD

    VaD Gold Meritorious Patron

    about the Source

    Is Hubbard the Why?

    I don't think so.

    If people hadn't accepted his System, there wouldn't be Scientologists, FreeZoners, Indies, Ex-Scientologists, critics of Scientology... (BTW, if we make a poll and get the total number of those mentoned above, there wouldn't be so many. Not enough to make global fuss about it.... or even a fuss inside one nation, for that matter)

    Hubbard created a believable system.

    Gullible ones fell for it. He exploited it and them.

    Hubbard is dead.

    The System is still here - in his writings (now "sacred scriptures" according to David Miscavige, the best Scientology can produce, it's Super-Model).

    That system is within. Not in "MEST" (books, insignia, photos).

    Either System has you, or you F*#k the System. - That seems to me a good answer.
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2010
  15. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    It WAS a great post by Jeff. Thanks for reposting here on ESMB. I hope that any people that have the mission to go back to the CoS after Miscavige is gone (believing that DM is the WHY for all that has been bad within CoS) will read and understand this post by Jeff.

    How many lives have to be ruined by an organization before we "make a fuss" over it?
  16. VaD

    VaD Gold Meritorious Patron

    Man-made systems are just twisted Natural laws

    I see Scientology now as just one of the numerous (throughout the history up until these days) attempts to match the Nature (or, for some cults, even exceed it).

    Hubbard's writings were for those who believed those writings. Many believed.

    As I posted above, humans prefer some "system" rather than not having any.

    It's only human to have some human's system adopted...
  17. VaD

    VaD Gold Meritorious Patron

    If you saw my other posts in this thread (and my sig line), you can ask me more direct questions.

    Answers in advance:
    Yes, Scn ruins people's lives.
    Yes, speaking out loud about it's abses it necessary.
    No, "the only reason" is not Hubbard himself.

    Fire away your questions, my friend! :yes:
  18. VaD

    VaD Gold Meritorious Patron


    It's not that some people just like "sadomasochism".

    They just get used to it.
    "The system is right and I'm wrong" - Sounds familiar?

    It's not about Hubbard.
    It's about the System he created.

    If we want to get abuses over with, we need to address the System.

    Not individuals involved, or having been involved in it.

    The system is in Hubbard's writings.

    P.S. Some time ago here I was happy that Russia banned most of LRH materials. Some here argued that it was "Draconian measures".
    Oh, well. To me, when bad System is removed many good things follow.:yes:
  19. VaD

    VaD Gold Meritorious Patron

    HH's line is great! Love it! :thumbsup:

    As to your post, Stat, my opinion is:
    mental, religious, spiritual, political, philosophical systems are no good.

    They just keep fucking up one's head (one way or another).

    But! I suspect that most of the people won't agree with me. And it's ok!
  20. AnonyMary

    AnonyMary Formerly Fooled - Finally Free

    Good post by Jeff. I was a part of that insanity, so it rings true to me . Bet it won't for Marty