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"Bad Apples or Bad Barrels?" by fishdaddy

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by VaD, Nov 21, 2010.

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  1. dianaclass8

    dianaclass8 Silver Meritorious Patron

    I agree with you wholeheartedly!

  2. AnonyMary

    AnonyMary Formerly Fooled - Finally Free

    Wow! You've done it again, Jeff!!

    IMHO, I believe that Hubbard laid the ground work for this insanity and he did so in attempts to control his organization after seeing that humans could screw it up. Policy after policy was laid out to resolve an issue that threatened to put a crack in the foundation of his creation. More and more policies came about to control and dehumanize people and promote the organization and the tech as senior to all. Hubbard acted from a narcissistic desire for perfection and control. His policies bacame our policies, for to believe otherwise was to make one not a dedicated member. These policies took on a life of their own in the membership by their very nature of being mandated and agreed to. "Purpose is senior to policy" being the most abused at the expense of thinking responsibily from a moral POV.

    That said, your article is excellent in describing the WHY and why the WHY is more important at this point than the WHO. If this analysis were done when Hubbard was alive, early on in the 60's, the WHY would be the obsessive need to control at the expense of allowing human error to occur naturally. Hubbard hated human error. He would be the WHO behind the WHY.

    But the machine has been running on automatic for years now and it has grown into a monster and we were all a part of it for agreeing not to think independently less one risk punishment. The Allstate situation is a great example of what happens. Hitler knew he could reap the rewards of a blindly dedicated few into many, who were equally responsible because they agreed.

    Mark Rathbun lacks the courage to look at his participation, and so keeps blaming Miscavige and discouraging others from looking elsewhere for the WHY. How these Marty loyalists don't see that is another example of the mechanisms at work that keep people from thinking objectively. I hope some read this article and wake up. You cannot move forward until you let go of the past.
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2010
  3. VaD

    VaD Gold Meritorious Patron

    "Marty" is not some being that have ever had power over my life.
    It was that "System" that was above the Law and everything.

    I don't worry about Marty.

    I'm concerned about System(s).
  4. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    Jeff is whipping out his mojo now and displaying it for all to see.

    And it's beautiful.
  5. VaD

    VaD Gold Meritorious Patron

    Alanzo, May I post your comment there (hope you don't mind. It was the first comment after all)

  6. VaD

    VaD Gold Meritorious Patron

    I agree with Jeff, and I don't agree with Alamzo.

    No! Not because I'm "after Jeff"... No! Not because I'm after "Marty".

    Just because I'm neutral. ... not sure if that makes sense (to Exes or others)
  7. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    Yes you may.

    My new understanding of Hubbard from the updated Stanford Prison Experiments is what prompted me to post on Marty's blog that Hubbard "went down the CDEI scale" in trying to make Scientology "work".

    That idea was total blasphemy and bullshit, of course.

    I think Jim Logan even donned his battle-gear and rode out on his horse to challenge me on that one.

    But Marty would not let any of my defenses and further explanations through, and everyone piled on while my arms were outstretched, tied to the stakes.

    Hubbard defined "humiliation" as spreading out another's anchor points and holding them there.

    I think that's what Marty does to with "wrong ideas" on his blog.

    It's kind of like the stocks that the Puritans used on "sinners" in their town square.

    Last edited: Nov 21, 2010
  8. VaD

    VaD Gold Meritorious Patron

    Why do you care about what Marty does? (well, he doesn't do but speaks)

    Who cares about what Marty does or doesn't do.

    How does it affect your (or anybody else's) life????
  9. SchwimmelPuckel

    SchwimmelPuckel Genuine Meatball

    Great essay from Jeff!

    On what I consider the most important failure of Scientology, as a philosophy and movement..

    And Dr. Zimbardo gave us a fitting word for it: 'The Lucifer Effect'!

    The Lucifer Effect can be seen in many 'groups' that humans form.. Conspicously in the childish 'boy gangs' that is common in cities and sometimes leading to criminality and murder. Very visible in the German Nazi party and with horrible consequences. A group like the Mafia is trapped in the Lucifer Effect. - The Lucifer Effect rears it's ugly head often and regularly.

    Do we see the Lucifer Effect in Scientology?

    I think we do.. Very much and blatantly so!

    Which is disappointing.. I really expected Scientology to be better at one time..

    Here's some public service links:
    The Stanford prison Experiment - Zimbardo
    The Stanford prison Experiment
    The Milgram Experiment
    Milgram Experiment

    Recommended reading:
    Lord Of the Flies
    This book is a thoughtprovoking entry to this topic.. A curious thing about it is that, after I escaped the Sinister Cult of Scientolgy, I changed my viewpoint on who was 'representing' Scientology, or 'the forces of good' in the story..

    The Lucifer Effect is elusive!

    Last edited: Nov 21, 2010
  10. AnonyMary

    AnonyMary Formerly Fooled - Finally Free

    Well, good for you.

    I posted that for the benefit of those who follow him without question.
  11. VaD

    VaD Gold Meritorious Patron

    I see what you are saying.

    I also see human beings WILLING to follow cults.

    It's just "inside their hearts". I want to be able to overcome that passion.
  12. Peter Soderqvist

    Peter Soderqvist Patron with Honors

    Soderqvist1: it seems to me that many have swallowed Jeff Hawkins essay hook, line, and sinker, but is it truth that as he claims that one person cannot be a why?
    The Church of Scientology has been active for over a century now, and many people have come, and go through the years, they have either left by themselves, or have been disconnected as SPs. So it doesn’t matter that people come, and goes, because the church stay the same, but would these abuses, etc has happened if L. Ron Hubbard had never existed in the first place? No! Would extermination of Jews happen in Auschwitz if Adolph Hitler had never been born? No! Would it happen if some of his minions have been left out? Yes they are only secondary! By the same token; L. Ron Hubbard is the why these abuses, and etc, has been possible!

    Soderqvist1: I think it is in place to quote Larry Brennan who under Hubbard’s order built COS’s religious cloaking!

    Declaration by Larry Brennan
    27. Throughout his declarations, Miscavige positions Hubbard as somehow a wonderful person betrayed by the GO. Hubbard, according to Miscavige, was not involved in GO activities and was off the lines during major corporate sort outs. The facts are very different. Hubbard was deeply involved in all major GO legal actions involving corporate throughout the history of the GO. Not only that, but many horrible abuses some in the GO carried out were under Hubbard's orders. Not only that, but the "damages cases" and other such cases that the GO was mired into defending where not just from things of their own doing. They were trying to defend against real damages in fact caused, not just by the GO, but rather by the standard application of abusive Hubbard policies found throughout organized scientology. The GO did many bad things and some in there committed crimes and deserved to go to jail. But the insane policies of Hubbard relating to such things as "fair game", "disconnection", the RPF, penalties, hard selling, etc., etc. were in fact behind many legitimate governmental and private civil actions against the "church". Hubbard was creating many of the main legal problems, not the GO. I declare under penalty of perjury under the laws of the United States of America that the foregoing is true and correct.

    High Court of London Mr. Justice Latey 1984
    Mr. Hubbard went into hiding in 1980. Attempts have been made to secure his attendance at various hearings in the Courts of the United States. They have all failed because be cannot be found and served. The evidence is clear and conclusive: Mr. Hubbard is a charlatan and worse as are his wife Mary Sue Hubbard (she has been convicted of criminal offences in the United States in connection with Scientology and imprisoned) and the clique at the top privy to the Cult's activities.
  13. AnonyMary

    AnonyMary Formerly Fooled - Finally Free

  14. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    Because I disagree with his approach.

    Because I can see the mistakes he's making, because I made many of the same ones myself.

    Because I want to pull him out of his cult and engage him in a debate where we can all participate and the best ideas can emerge for everyone to choose so they can move forward to more meaningful lives after the Church, as Scientologists or not.

    Because I can't stand to see people decieved and manipulated and I will always fuck with the deceivers and the manipulators because I love doing that kind of shit.

    Because George Orwell is my hero.

    Because I want to exercise the right to the freedom of speech and demonstrate its value to those who have had that right suppressed for so long in the Church, and give them a playing field with which to rehabilitate it in their own lives.

    Because, ultimately, I believe there is some worth in Scientology and I do not want to see its value destroyed for future generations.
  15. AnonyMary

    AnonyMary Formerly Fooled - Finally Free

    Peter, I love Larry Brennan and all he has written but I don't think what he's written disagrees with what Jeff is saying. Before you can locate the WHOs, you have to get the WHYs. Larry would be the first to say that Hubbard laid the foundation for what Miscavige did.
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2010
  16. VaD

    VaD Gold Meritorious Patron

    I see!
    And agree with you, Alanzo.
  17. Peter Soderqvist

    Peter Soderqvist Patron with Honors

    Soderqvist1: AnonyMary I don’t buy Scientology’s point of view regarding “why, or “who”!
    Without said foundation Miscavige, and Co would have no instruction to carry out. Said instruction have motivated them all, Marty Rathbun has said he was motivated by said foundation, or more precisely Leaders Responsibilities by Hubbard. And according to said foundation Scientologists cannot contribute anything to its Scriptures, because they are only puppets which can only carry out its instruction. Thus Scientology creates humans with low responsibilities. I don’t carry out anything of it, because I don’t obey Hubbard!
    I simply live my own life!
  18. VaD

    VaD Gold Meritorious Patron

    I hope what was posted first was good information for many to consider.

    It's good that it stays here, on ESMB for others to read and watch

    Thanks for reading.
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2010