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Bill Franks Interviews for UTR folks and new Exes

Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by ILove2Lurk, Dec 22, 2018.

  1. TomKat

    TomKat Patron Meritorious

    Do I sound too much like this guy?:

    You obviously haven't learned from anything. You believe Hubbard's "tech" has definite and explicit value without any proof. Nothing scientific has been done to verify Hubbard's claims. NOTHING SCIENTIFIC. The only reason you give any credence to Hubbard's "tech" is because of your belief.
    No results? Discounted because you believe.
    Bad results? Discounted because you believe.
    Placebo effects? Discounted because you believe.
    Imagined results? Accepted because you believe.
    Negative anecdotes? Rejected without question because you believe.
    Positive anecdotes? Accepted without evaluation because you believe.
  2. TomKat

    TomKat Patron Meritorious

    OK. How did you conclude that out-int is disassociation?
  3. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    Good point. Please indicate which of these are correct:
    • Do you accept the fact that the "tech" produces no results?
    • Do you accept the fact that the "tech" produces bad results?
    • Do you accept that "tech" results are completely consistent with the placebo effect?
    • Do you doubt results that appear "too good" or obviously imaginary?
    • Do you accept anecdotal evidence if it says bad things about the "tech"?
    • Do you view positive anecdotal evidence with any skepticism?
    If you answered "yes" to all of those, then I am impressed.

    But, if not, then exactly what do you base your "certainty" about Hubbard's "tech" on? Your own "knowingness"? :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2019
  4. lotus

    lotus stubborn rebel sheep!

    Yes! Although this tag may also be attached to some other other issues...

    The pseudo stage of being out of the body I've seen and experienced in Scientology has nothing To do with a spiritual "trip" out of the body. It is solely a dissociation mental phenomanon co-concomitant with issues mind and mental can't make sense with and that often happens with rundown, higher levels, sec checking...none to mention the false memories of the false incidents on the false track...

    The avantage our critical thought has over a $cientology true believer, is that we are not limited to a pseudo truth or a pseudo science belief...we have explored, studied other real sciences and made other valuable experiences which leaded to a better ability to split valuable from non valuable compared to our narrow mind ignorant approach we had in the cult and that we left behind in chosing true freedom of thought.
    This is how knowledge happens.
    Only with an exterior viewpoint on things we can evaluate...and experiencing, collecting reliable datas, can we .be a good evaluator and sharpen our critical thinking, always meeting in mind that we met be wrong and total certitude doesn't existe in this world...settiing a goal to attain such is buying a pass to mental illness.
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2019
  5. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    I don't think you are going to get anybody here to agree with your reality, but what the hey, give a shot, LOL
    Anonymous100 likes this.
  6. TomKat

    TomKat Patron Meritorious

    1&2) The tech sometimes produces results, good and bad, but the bad is usually cured by time. 3) Placebo produces real results in medicine, and can be even more effective in the mind. 4) I do not judge people's subjective states of mind, but if abilities are claimed I'd like a demonstration. 5) I'll accept any evidence, if offered 6) If I see evidence, I won't doubt what I see.

    I would hate for you to be impressed, but I have little regard for standard tech. Your questions show a blanket certainty of world view that is reminiscent of a religious zealot. I suspect what exposure you have had to "the tech" did not inspire much evaluation on your part, hence the blanket condemnation. 30 years of no result... you must have been in the Sea Org, pushing and being pushed around.
  7. TomKat

    TomKat Patron Meritorious

    Lotus, out-int is not exteriorization, it is a negative reaction to being interior, with symptoms that include recurring headaches and ear/nose/throat problems. Disassociation is a separation from "self" as a result of trauma, which creates mild or severe symptoms of schizophrenia. Exteriorization is a temporary spiritual state that usually has nothing to do with trauma. In Dianetics, if the PC ran the incident disassociated, it would not erase because it was being experienced "out of valence." No offense, but I perceive you don't have much to teach me about psychological or scientological theories.
  8. TomKat

    TomKat Patron Meritorious

    I don't want agreement, but an intelligent discussion would be nice. But it looks like the Cof$ has been turning out mostly dummies since the late 80s. I can't imagine how dumb are the people still in...
  9. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    Interesting. I am impressed. Not so much your answers as the fact that you are still willing to discuss things with me. I'm not being very nice but you are still talking. Cool.

    But I don't like you. You continue to assume shit with no data, no knowledge and no confirmation. I admit I did the same thing about you. Bad me. But I'm totally willing to admit I was doing that and asked questions to find out more about you.

    But, no! Apparently asking questions is a bad thing done by a religious zealot in your little cave of belief and certainty. You are, once again, wrong in all your assumptions -- but oh, so certain.

    You speak of stupidity. I'd say your total certainty with no data, no knowledge and no confirmation would be a good definition of stupidity. A person can't think if they are certain without data.

    I leave you to your stupid certainty. Don't bother with any more of your insulting assumptions.
  10. lotus

    lotus stubborn rebel sheep!

    I can assure you Tomkat there is no intent of me to teach you $cientology...but I will certainly keep going on again about what it really does to human beings and what it is not...;)

    Be assure too, Tomkat, I have a quite good first hand knowledge of out\int and int rundowns....(I am out int for approximately 25 years or When they are programmed and what they are "supposed" to address and what commands...and how it doesn't in fact handle anything than avoid we leave the most of handlings goals actually.....
    No offense To you TomKat but nobody and nothing, no any science can teach you anything out of your guru pseudo knowledge...because you "already know the knowledge" ;)
    Otherwise you would already know the vast amount of cognitive dissonance one mind must create to keep all this Hubtard non-sense not to fall appart.

    Out-int doesn't exist and has nothing to do with having gone has to do with one wanting to leave.. like in "enough. I want to Leave this toxico place ..this fucktard cult..this mindfuck..." Not feeling good (aboit what"s done with me here), don't want to come here.

    Then your Guru, as usual, came up with another way to mind manipulate his slaves in not leaving!
    When people are under heavy stress and want to take action but are pressure to not do what their whole being urge them to do, a process of dissociation will take place to allow to keep on going without's a pro-survival process.

    The somatic will appear because of the intense pressure and given the commands to come in till feel good, will reinforce the dissociation process.

    To the opposite of your mention dissociation is a way larger spectrum of natural processes of coping with difficult times, issues, not only traumatic events and it's manifestation; To the opposite of your definition , are most of the time being not of schizophrenic nature.

    A good exemple are all the dissociated Scientologist you see on a SO compound..the only way to keep going on, is to protect with some degree of dissociation..but they are not schizophrenic for most of them...only zombies.
    [justify]Same for upper levels shocking mindfuck...people have paid so much money...they must install dissociation to keep going on as if everthing is fine despite they know they have been fooled..same to run the Slave compound , same to abuse other...same to refuse ti recognize the evil practice of Hubbard Tech and keep going on in exorcising people..= cognitive dissonance and possibly dissociation.(out of a bubble)

    Here is a more comprehensive explanation of dissociation than yours def: * fair use excerpt:[/justify]

    Sandra L. Brown, M.A.

    Pathological Relationships
    Dissociation Isn't a Life Skill
    Dissociation is technically a defense mechanism.
    Posted Nov 22, 2012

    Dissociation is described as:
    1. The splitting off of a group of mental processes from the main body of

    consciousness, as in amnesia.
    2. The act of separating or state of being separated.
    3. The separation into two or more fragments.

    Let's talk about dissociation a minute: It's technically a defense mechanism—we separate out of our memory things that we don't want to or can't deal with. In trauma (like abuse or rape), that's helpful at the time. If dissociation becomes your major defense mechanism, it can become a full blown dissociative disorder which are very intense types of disorders. But outside of full blown dissociative disorders, there is still the ability to heavily rely on dissociation even if you don't have the disorder

    We can get trained to dissociate and use it against ourselves! Dissociation is when we separate from our awareness 'details' of an event. I think this happens with dangerous men as early as the first date when we 'choose' to not pay attention to our screaming red flags. We are dissociating their messages away from our awareness because if we truly became 'aware,' we might ditch him early on and we don't want to.

    Wether you like it or not, $cientology desintegrate people wholeness and drive them into fear, despair, lost of identity, coerced to create a cluster of entities invading their body...wich is quite enough to justify the mental using of dissociation in self protection to such enforced schizoid reframing of oneself.

    Don't think I am tring to educate or convince you as, like some people, in these occasions I write for the lurkers. There is no way to get a discusdion with a tech true believer..he is a LRH fana...and his mind is framed to think like LRH....

    No offense to you..Been there done that too!
  11. lotus

    lotus stubborn rebel sheep!

    Jeez Tomkat

    It appears you are under entheta suppressive assault..

    Disgusting ignorant people who refuse to have an intelligent discussion with you.
  12. lotus

    lotus stubborn rebel sheep!


    Sorry but in case you never noticed, the people you are adressing to here were trained in the 70's and begining of 80's. (some even earlier than that on the Apollo)
    Many of them were top tech people..

    But something happened to them, over the years and that seem obvious ....

    When the obvious became too obviously obvious..

    They cognited ...
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2019
    strativarius likes this.
  13. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    Yes, we come from the pure unadulterated Scientology when The Old Man was still running things. We got Scientology street cred!
    Jenyfurrr likes this.
  14. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    That ugly 'stone cold certainty' thing that scientologists are trained to project (whether they know what they're talking about or not) is so transparent ... but it worked for a little while back in the day, especially when delivered with an intense stare.

    This is 2019 though and it hasn't 'worked' for a very long time, rudeness and insults don't seem to improve things either, but do continue ... it's fascinating to watch (if only for old times sake).

    Type4_PTS, phenomanon and Churchill like this.
  15. lotus

    lotus stubborn rebel sheep!



    Jeez sis,

    It takes years of professional training to stare and hold a clipboard like this auditor, a scientist in spiritual, ghosts and mental matters
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2019
  16. TomKat

    TomKat Patron Meritorious

    Oh but I like you! I like how you stomped all over my comparison between Scn and psychology with your blanket condemnation of the tech, in a very pompous and superior fashion (in case you haven't noticed that about yourself). Then your come-back was equally insulting but I played along and answered your high-handed interrogation. I'm sorry if I assumed you are the pompous ass you present to the world. And you might want to come up with an original thought once in awhile, rather than the cliches you keep throwing out.
  17. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    I'm afraid I'd have to flunk her ... she has a frown that would stop a clock (that ain't no "TR0" ... is it @TomKat?) and ... she's confronting via a clipboard!!!

  18. TomKat

    TomKat Patron Meritorious

    I'm sorry if you still have PTSD from Scn. But perhaps you should stop invalidating people who have gotten over it and wish to discuss the subject with a finer lens that "all that bullshit is wrong."
  19. TomKat

    TomKat Patron Meritorious

    I'd say she's confronting with her brow and hiding behind the clip board.
  20. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation