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Catastrophism and Scientology

Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by Mimsey Borogrove, Dec 30, 2018.

  1. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    There are two major schools of thought – there is gradualism, where changes in Earth take place over may years, centuries, thousand and millions of years, such as glaciers slowly advancing and receding, the northward movement of the pacific crust against the north American crust, up thrusting of mountain ranges.

    There is catastrophism where there are sudden dramatic cataclysms – meteor impacts such as the Chicxulub impact that wiped out 90% of life on earth is a really good example.

    Another is a combination of the two: there are gradual changes punctuated by catastrophes.

    One of the more interesting hypothesis is the pole shift theory. This has been around for quite a while, popularized by Charles Hapgood a few decades ago. In a nut shell, the earth’s crust slips from its current position to another. The last was some 23 degrees. Prior to the slippage part of Antarctic was ice free because it was further north, and Siberia was further to the south. A very accurate ice free Antarctica can be seen in the Piri Reis map, drawn in the 1500s, which was compiled from earlier maps.

    Hapgood and other’s theories was that the crust was displaced – the North pole was no longer in Hudson’s Bay in Canada but was relocated to the Artic Ocean. While there is plenty of scientific evidence that this happened, the causal agent is not understood. Hapgood’s hypothesis was that as ice age glaciers built up in the north polar region, immense water weight built up, centrifugal force pulled it southwards – it being the ice pinned to the crust – resulting in the crust slipping over the liquid magma.

    How else was one to explain Mammoths with frozen tropical plants in their mouths? Unfortunately, they have to be quick frozen for that to have happened. Big mystery.

    Hubbard opted for a pissed off OT ripping the air cover off the planet, and giving it a twist, as he discussed in the Free Being tape. It was something I always questioned.

    Hapgood’s centrifugal forces acting on glaciers hypothesis has holes in it so leaves one to wonder.

    Our dear CIA has censured a book on the subject which was recently released as explained in the first of the two below videos. In it we find a different scenario where the pole shift is intertwined with the magnetic pole shift – as the magnetic pole shifts, the crust is pulled along with the shift in magnetic orientation. It is a rather sudden shift and giant tsunamis occur – hundreds of feet tall as the inertia of the water holds it in place as the crust shifts beneath the oceans. It drives earth civilizations into the stone age.

    The Rocky Mountains serve as a natural barrier to such a tsunami – so much so, that the US government built the Cheyenne Mountain complex on the eastern side of the Rockies, one presumes, in accordance with the data in the newly released book.

    The second video goes into a different theory – that of a massive solar eruption, many orders of magnitude greater than the Carrington event. Were the Carrington event to happen today – much of our electronic based society would cease to function. It would be a disaster of biblical proportions.

    Neither of these videos take into account the recently discovered crater in Greenland or the one that his the ice sheet covering the great lakes at the end of the Younger Dryas, resulting the die off of North American mega fauna, though Schoch does discuss it in his recent book.

    Interestingly enough, Hubbard is spectacularly lacking in any evidence of such global disasters in his writing. While he launches into fanciful space opera and the like, about the only mega disaster he entertains is incident 2 of the OT III materials – the wall of fire found in the H bombing of volcanic craters. I find there is an interesting relation between his description of the wall of fire and the solar outburst / mini nova discussed in the second video. Maybe he was on to something but his space opera paradigm got in the way?


    Last edited: Dec 30, 2018
  2. Mike Holland

    Mike Holland Patron

    What Hubbard opted for is total bullshit. He had no education. He did not complete his degree at George Washington university, and he bought a Doctorate degree from Sequoia university. He never completed a course in anything, and has never earned any qualifications.

    There has been no sudden slippage of the Earth's crust. Look at the dating of the crust beneath the Atlantic ocean as it expands from the mid-Atlantic ridge. Look at the dating of the Pacific islands as the crust slowly slides over the magma hot spot that causes the rising volcanoes that form them. Continental drift is all gradualism.

    Ice ages occur on a scale of tens of thousands of years. Continental drift occurs on a scale of many millions of years. A sudden slippage of the Earth's crust would cause such intense volcanic activity that all life would be wiped out, and the whole surface would be layered in ash. Just imagine the magna bow wave in front of a slipping land mass. The result would be far higher than the Himalayas. And the Himalayas are still being formed as India barges into Asia.
    DagwoodGum and strativarius like this.
  3. Mike Holland

    Mike Holland Patron

    I have just watched the two attached videos. Are you aware that Japanese scientists have studied varve layers (varves are annual sediment deposits at the bottoms of lakes) in one of their lakes going back 100,000 years, and that there is as sequence of varves in the Green river formation in Wyoming that covers 5 million years? Both these varve sequences show the 11 year sunspot cycle, just as tree rings do, with no signs of mini-novae in the Sun's output. The Green river formation also shows the 26,000 year precession cycle. There are no regular catastrophes recorded in the varve sequences, or in tree ring sequences which go back about 18,000 years.
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
    strativarius likes this.
  4. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    I didn't say I fully endorsed his work, and have some skepticism, such as: would a pole shift be sufficient to overcome the inertia of the spinning earth?

    But there are other opposing conundrums - the precision alignment of ancient structures, such as the pyramids etc. on the N-S, E-W axis being one of them. But on the other hand when you read studies done on the Peri Reis maps, they show an accurate ice free Antarctica, a land bridge between Alaska and Siberia, and show either the tropic of Cancer or Capricorn in a different orientation than now ( and Antarctica is further north)

    I had watched a preper video in which this (geologist?) had moved to the Rockies, and the reason was the frequent recurring mega floods for which there is ample evidence of. It would have been helpful if he had provided links etc. for the proofs, but he didn't.

    Another interesting datum is the vast number of handed down tales of a mega flood ( the Christian version being Noah's flood) in different cultures. There are multiple books on the subject available.

    Then there are sunken cities such as the one off the coast of Egypt, or the study that much of south America has risen thousands of feet above sea level, which also need integrated into our understanding of our history. The finding of a city under the Mediterranean sea is quite a conundrum, since they are pulling up Egyptian statues - when did this happen? Or, how old is the Egyptian society?

    Clearly something went on which we haven't worked out a comprehensive understanding thereof.

    In the below video, the author speculates on the orientation of the equator some 12K years ago. In the second & third the author speculates on our lack of history of previous societies.

    Contrary to the widely accepted belief we know it all, the full understanding our history is work in progress, as unsettling as that may be.


    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  5. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    One of the keynotes in the OP theory is the pole flip - well the pole's moving fast - and with it, the magnetosphere is weakening. This has profound impacts as the weakening field allows cosmic radiation to penetrate deeper into the atmosphere, resulting in an increase of cloud cover.


    "Cosmic rays are charged particles that bombard the Earth's atmosphere from outer space. Studies suggest they may influence cloud cover either through the formation of new aerosols (tiny particles suspended in the air that can grow to form seeds for cloud droplets) or by directly affecting clouds themselves."


    New Study Shows How Rapidly Earth's Magnetic Field Is Changing
    New research has shown in the most detail yet how rapidly Earth's magnetic field - which acts like a shield to protect us from harsh solar winds and cosmic radiation - is changing, getting weaker over some parts of the world, and strengthening over others.

    A Mysterious Anomaly Under Africa Is Radically Weakening Earth's Magnetic Field
    Above our heads, something is not right. Earth's magnetic field is in a state of dramatic weakening – and according to mind-boggling new research, this phenomenal disruption is part of a pattern lasting for over 1,000 years.
    More at link

    NEWS 09 January 2019
    Earth’s magnetic field is acting up and geologists don’t know why
    Erratic motion of north magnetic pole forces experts to update model that aids global navigation.
    Update, 9 January: The release of the World Magnetic Model has been postponed to 30 January due to the ongoing US government shutdown.
    Something strange is going on at the top of the world. Earth’s north magnetic pole has been skittering away from Canada and towards Siberia, driven by liquid iron sloshing within the planet’s core. The magnetic pole is moving so quickly that it has forced the world’s geomagnetism experts into a rare move.
    On 15 January, they are set to update the World Magnetic Model, which describes the planet’s magnetic field and underlies all modern navigation, from the systems that steer ships at sea to Google Maps on smartphones.
    In 2018, the pole crossed the International Date Line into the Eastern Hemisphere. It is currently making a beeline for Siberia.
    More at link.

    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  6. Mike Holland

    Mike Holland Patron

    That video about the equator shifting shows the ignorance of the narrator. The orientation of the poles has changed, as he describes, because of the 26,000 year precession cycle. The Earth's north pole points towards the star Polaris at present, but like a spinning top it moves around relative to the heavens. The poles and equator do not shift relative to the Earth's surface. Any shifting that does take place is due to continental drift, and the continents do not drift in unison - they go off in different directions, colliding with each other, splitting in half, opening up oceans.

    I wish the authors of these Velikovskian theories would study a little geology, plate tectonics, physics and all the Earth science advances over the past fifty years. The scientists have a very good understanding of the Earth's history based on facts and research. The author of this video has no concept of the law of conservation of momentum, and the tremendous planet-destroying forces that would be required to make the Earth rotate about a different axis - at the very least a collision with a Moon-sized object.
  7. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

    OK, that's Mimsey sorted out, now how about putting old freethinker straight while you're at it. Please? :biggrin:
  8. Mike Holland

    Mike Holland Patron

    You want me to write a textbook? I put enough references in there for anyone to do more research on Google! :)
    tesseract likes this.
  9. guanoloco

    guanoloco As-Wased

    Mimsey won't do it. He's in the Woo Bird woo bus and won't pull over. I like to post the Doors lyrics...the woo calling us...driver, where you takin us?

    It takes a 15 second Google to read about the pole shifts that are well known and have left well documented geological records that clearly show these shifts are thousands of years long in occurrence.

    There's no such thing as centrifugal force...theres only centripetal force but this may be splitting hairs.

    It's only in the past week or so that he's come around to the Sun having fusion reaction as opposed to fission.

    It's a work in process.

    But one must ask you, Mike, is the Sun conscious?
  10. Mike Holland

    Mike Holland Patron

    Is the Sun conscious?
    Is a bird conscious? I would definitely say "yes", but I can't justify it. Is a single living cell conscious? I don't know. I am not certain about trees, but I certainly don't think the Sun is conscious. Or the chair I am sitting on.
    I don't understand consciousness, I think it is contiguous with nervous systems. But when I see the colour blue, where in my brain is there a bit of blue? You can cut consciousness in half with a scalpel. Look up split brain studies where the corpus callosum has been cut through.

    Lets see how much discussion this generates! :D
    But we've wandered way off the original topic. Sorry, Mimsey.
    Little David likes this.
  11. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

    Mention birds and you're bound to get a response from me, I'm obsessed with 'em. They're more than conscious, they're highly intelligent (ask Sheila).

    An interesting detail - if I've got six small pieces of cheese in my hand, my friendly crow will unerringly go for the largest piece first and leave the smallest until last even if the difference is measured in millimeters, and this is the case with whatever food I give him. The instinct to capitalise is simply awesome and there's no time to waste, he'll grab the biggest bit first every time. His judgement is astonishing.
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
    DagwoodGum and Leland like this.
  12. tesseract

    tesseract Patron with Horrors

    I've been left with a cliffhanger a while ago and was going to ask eventually how things are going between the two of you, but all he/she would say was "Craw-craw-craw" repeatedly and I do not understand crowlish... or crowley...
    Anyways, well done, crow! It now feeds you from its hands! :cool:

  13. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

    Yes, it does, it's got me running around by demanding to be fed fairly frequently, and if I don't show up in good time it makes a godawful racket with its cawing until I appear with some food for it. Fortunately for me, this one hasn't acquired a nicotine habit otherwise it would be costing me even more to keep in its good books. I hope it doesn't manage to find my cocaine stash. :biggrin:
    tesseract likes this.
  14. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

    I went looking for the origin of the story of "quick-frozen mammoths"

    Flash-Frozen Mammoths and Their Buttercups: Yet Another Case of Repetition and Recycling of Bad Data

    The timing of the Post article was likely where LRH got the story from

    Long but interesting article. Summary: scientifically illiterate reporter misinterprets data, writes article, and serves as a basis for misinformation for decades following.
  15. guanoloco

    guanoloco As-Wased

    Well, Mike, thanks for answering. You can click on Mimsey's name, view profile, look at postings and scroll to the bottom to see all threads begun by Mimsey. There you can read about sundry topics of whether or not the Sun is conscious, ancient lost technology of advanced human culture and such.

    I still am undecided if he's just having fun being polemic or if it's sincere woo but we love him just the same and claim him in the fold.

    A word of caution, though, be prepared of tl;dr copy/pastes and long videos of alarming sensationalism. I'm not certain that it ever gets as bad as hollow Earth theories or Reptiliods but one can only hope.
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
  16. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

    Yes, it is an interesting article, thanks for posting it. I also noticed that a doubter had left this comment for the author:

    2/6/2016 05:50:18 pm

    Whatever your smoking, could you get me some?

    No mate, it's not dope you need, it's a dictionary.
  17. guanoloco

    guanoloco As-Wased you've gone and pissed me off!!

    So I'm posting this Noahs' Ark:

    For well over a century scholars have recognised that the Bible's story of Noah's ark is based on older Mesopotamian models. Because all these flood stories deal with events that allegedly happened at the dawn of history, they give the impression that the myths themselves must come from very primitive origins, but the myth of the global flood that destroys all life only begins to appear in the Old Babylonian period (20th–16th centuries BCE).​

    For those curious enough to want to know how far back Old Babylonian writing goes:

    The cuneiform writing system was in use for more than three millennia, through several stages of development, from the 31st century BC down to the second century AD.​

    There's something like an 11 hundred year gap before they decide to write down the story.
  18. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    How do you know they haven't studied it?

    It's the age old difference of opinion - gradualism vs. catastrophism. Their theory is based on sudden vast changes - modern science freely believes the solar system was much like a pin ball machine in it's early days - what's to say that it hasn't happened in the not so distant past? Any close encounter with a planet sized object will have vast effects.

    Have you read anything about, or looked at the Piri Reiss maps? How do you explain those features? An ice free Antarctica is a tough one to take.

    Velikovsky based his theories in part on the legends, stories etc. handed down from multiple civilizations of vast cataclysms, which other scholars have also noted. It begs the question - why the similar stories from such disparate origins? His predictions, such as the temperature of Venus, the radio emissions from Jupiter, the moon having a solid surface, heretical when made have since been validated.

    "27. Van Allen radiation belts surround the earth and extend far beyond it. Predicted by Velikovsky in 1956 and discovered by rocket probes in 1958. This was one of the first space probes results and a complete surprise to scientists and astronomers. But not to Velikovsky, who predicted it.
    28. In 1953 Velikovsky predicted radio waves coming from Jupiter. This was confirmed in 1955 and was a complete surprise to astronomers.
    29. The back side of the moon had never been seen until a space probe orbited around behind it. Everyone expected it would look just like the front side. It doesn’t and Velikovsky had predicted this based on his theories about lunar history. Front side of moon Back side of moon Astronomers have no current theories to explain this totally unexpected situation
    30. NASA was concerned that the moon would be covered with a thick layer of dust and that astronauts would sink down into it. Velikovsky correctly predicted a hard surface, based on his theories about recent events in the solar system.
    31. In July 1969, on the eve of the first landing on the Moon, the New York Times invited Velikovsky to summarize what he expected the Apollo missions to find. Velikovsky responded by listing nine "advance claims," including remnant magnetism, a steep thermal gradient in the soil downwards, radioactive hot spots, regular moonquakes, and argon and neon trapped in rocks. All told, it was a remarkably accurate summation of later findings. All of these predictions followed from his radical theories and none were expected to be true by astronomers.

    "The September 1999 Scientific American magazine had a fascinating article about new computer simulation research that shows that planets can and do migrate from some orbits into other orbits. This is an essential key part of Velikovsky’s theories and one that physicists and astronomers have long declared to be absolutely impossible. The author of the article concludes by saying – “Nevertheless, one thing is certain: the idea that planets can change their orbits dramatically is here to stay”. Nowhere is there any mention of Velikovsky, whose name is still a path to career suicide. But credit should be given for his ideas from 1950 – a full 59 years before this article. "

    More at the link:
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
  19. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    It responds to stimuli in a complex way - it's not conscious in the sense that you are typing to us on your keyboard. But, Sheldrakes video explains it rather well, it's in the Is The Sun Conscious thread. Perhaps in the sense of animism.

  20. guanoloco

    guanoloco As-Wased

    Whew...OK. I just sloughed through this somewhat but the great and grand mystery of Thonis-Heracleion isn't what you're posting. It was mentioned in writing as an extant city in 380 and 238 BC. That's about 200 years after Plato.

    Here's some fun to read...this was click bait that I went through earlier in the year of 2018 when I was supposed to be working...but since this isn't an O/W session I'll post it here for fun.

    One of the objects that were found while exploring the sunken city of Heracleion was an oil lamp. Who would believe that a bronze oil lamp will endure the tragedy and still be in good condition? This surprising discovery is considered to date as far back as 2nd Century BC.​