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Cultic or human nature?

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by Emma, Dec 28, 2007.

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  1. Mick Wenlock

    Mick Wenlock Admin Emeritus (retired)

    Interesting, Leon. What would be the warm fuzzy things that anyone could take from being in Scientology?

    The time we all sat round a tape player listening to RJ 67?

    I went to Tel Aviv in 1980 to the mission there, I swear I had more fun celebrating Hannukah in the mission than anything to do with Scientology. At FOLO EU we had some great Christmas parties.

    The ONLY thing I can remember having a great time at, that was strictly Scientology was the release of NED event at Flag. That was a good time.
  2. Div6

    Div6 Crusader

    Before the Mission Network was obliterated, their New Years parties ROCKED....
    Killjoy Miscavige put an end to that.

    On the "Teck is Dreck" side of the fence, taking a raw PC in session and blowing them out of their head was always fun. Bringing some one UP tone through communication and duplication is a skill I walked away with. Also, being able to observe indicators has been dirty needles via comm alone is another good skill.

    But the best thing so far has been becoming cause over regges. I can shut them up in 2 seconds now, and send them off with their tail between their legs.
  3. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    Fluffy -

    At the beginning of your post, you made this point:

    Then, at the end of your post, you concluded with this:

    One of the maddening and insulting points you make over and over is that if a person was an asshole before they were a Scientologist, then they were an asshole as a Scientologist, and then later as an ex, too. They are just an asshole through and through, and that's it.

    So are you saying that being in Scientology had no effect on them.

    But then you also express what most people have observed - and studies have shown repeatedly - that a cult brings out the worst tendencies of people, and when they get out of that cult environment, their worst tendencies fade away.

    Could you answer, please

    Which is it?
  4. Leon

    Leon Gold Meritorious Patron

    I had HUGE amounts of fun in Scientology. Stilll do. Both with the tech and at party time - those booze-free New Year's parties and dances in the academy were absolutely the best I ever had in my whole entire life. And in auditing and supervising - seeing guys change, seeing them get free of the crap that's been bugging them, seeing their lives expand and how happy they are - it's the most addictive high anyone could ever get onto.
  5. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    There was a point like that in Scientology for me, too.

    And it mostly had to do with times early on, and when there was no Sea Org around to screw it up.
  6. Div6

    Div6 Crusader

    I agree...the Sea Org killed the Expanding Org star....
  7. Free to shine

    Free to shine Shiny & Free

    You make me laugh Alanzo!

    That IS how we should treat stats. See them for what they are and not take it as life and death serious by attaching conditions that affect your whole life. And of course the biggest point of all is the definition of that stat - does it actually reflect the needed data?

    On one post I held they couldn't work out what an appropriate stat should be, it was for a project. So it ended up being "cycles of action completed" without the definition of what cycle, or need to keep records! Well I must say that was about the easiest stat I ever had to keep up! I made a cup of coffee for a prospect didn't I? That was a cycle.... :D
  8. lionheart

    lionheart Gold Meritorious Patron


    That reminded me of some of the nuttiness!

    Most org-board, LRH assigned stats were cunningly designed so that that person's post couldn't entirely control the stat. That was a really naughty control mechanisim the old bugger put in on us all!

    But, yes those invented stats for non-LRH designed posts were sometimes a hoot! :roflmao:
  9. Free to shine

    Free to shine Shiny & Free

    Yes, a great number of stats are something you really can't control. When I was Reception at Saint Hill it was 'bodies in the shop'. So I would sit there staring at the door willing people to walk in! (Actually it often worked!) What the hell else could I do? My job was to greet and direct people, not make them come in 'the shop' and do all the things they had to be to be counted as a stat. :duh:
  10. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

    I would suggest: don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

    Performance statistics is not uniquely a Scientology thing. People and organizations all over the world keep stats on their businesses.

    All of the companies that I have ever worked for keep stats on sales and prompt delivery times, etc.

    Please don't be concerned about this. Just keep doing what you are doing. :)
  11. Takin Time

    Takin Time Patron with Honors

    I find it frequent that I encounter a datum I've been using in life that "came from" my time in Scientology. I usually reject it out of principle. I SHOULD take a moment (I sometimes find this hard) to examine it closely and determine if it is true or not; does it also come from outside of Scientology; was this one of the rip-offs of Scientology?

    As for stats such as you describe re ESMB, some industries would call those "benchmarks". From one dictionary, benchmark: a standard or point of reference in measuring or judging quality, value, etc.

    As to saying "I won't talk to you, if you talk to so-and-so", yes it occurs outside of Scientology (I remember clearly such an incident when I was a youngster; "If you're friends with so-and-so, I won't be friends with you!"). If you're an adult, it's really no one's business who your other friends are.
  12. namaste

    namaste Silver Meritorious Patron

    Cultic or human nature?

    It seems to me that cults are human nature. (Not basic human nature.)

    After all, how did they become cults to begin with? Humans created them.

    This is something that I have thought about myself quite a bit.

    I have observed a number of groups that started out with a pretty good goal and purpose and wound up being cults.

    It's just the track that a group always seems to take, especially after the founder is gone, and it bugs me.

    The Church of Scientology is only one example of many but let's use it. Take KSW for instance. A person could actually read that, evaluate it for whatever valid points it may be trying to make and use it to forward a purpose, but nooooooooo, they have to focus on the stupid stuff. Let's all go around and act real tough-like; let's make being reasonable a sin instead of a virtue; let's bow down and be humble to this idol. :puke: Etc., etc. To hell with the original purpose, let's take or own half-witted interpretations and just go through the motions of doing these so we will be acceptable.

    I know I'm ranting but it really does bother me to see my fellow human beings get caught up in this kind of crap.

    For more examples you could take any religion on this planet to start with. It's the same old thinking and behavior over and over, just different idols -- none of whom are worthy of blind, obedient worship.
    But people just have this great compulsion to worship and be obedient to somebody.

    Even business will often follow that course. A. L. Williams, Amway, the list goes on and on. Lot's of good people there and nothing really wrong with what they are doing, just don't think you are better than everyone else who isn't a part of your group, that's all.
    But people tend to do this for some reason.

    I do believe that there is validity in the basics and chains theory and I belive that cults like the Church of Scientology, Christianity,, and such are not even anywhere near to the basic that underlies this behavior, just late locks.
    I think the basic goes way back.
    I really wonder where it comes from.

    I have always though that you posting the monthly stats was just the opposite of what the CoS or another cult would do.
    They would either try to keep them hidden or put up false statistics. As long as all of the stats are posted (not just the "up" ones) and are the true statistics, which I'm sure they are, then why not.
    If you feel that you are doing it out of a past cult-induced compulsion then, of course, that's another matter. :)
    Personally, I enjoy seeing them.
    At least you are aware of "the stat is king" behavior. I don't think that scios are even aware that statistics are a representation of something that is actually occurring and how that relates to how well or not well the game is being played.
    It doesn't matter at all whether any case gain was achieved anywhere or not, only that the statistic of a department was up so the person in charge doesn't get berated and punished. Pathetic.
    It's not like that here. Big difference.

    Sounds like she's trying to employ a control mechanism to me but I'm no expert. I hope you don't worry yourself to much about it. And I sure hope you are not controlled in any way by it.

    Be it pro or anti, I have seen so many screaming lunatics on ARS and other message boards that I wouldn't even begin to try to figure them out. It's like water off a duck's back at this point.

    I think I know this one! :D

    You can choose whether or not to be free of it and when.

    Am I right?


    . . . Anybody??
  13. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    That is the standard stat for an HCO Expeditor, I believe.

    I agree it is silly, as it is so easy to redefine things week by week. Instant missed withholds. :)

  14. Lulu Belle

    Lulu Belle Moonbat

    When I was in, this was a Div 6 stat, not HCO's.
  15. Ralph Hilton

    Ralph Hilton Patron Meritorious

    The silliest I came across was "number of hours spent working on post"
  16. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    If something's a positive trait or habit, then it is- regardless of where it takes place.

    If something's a negative trait or habit, then it is- regardless of where it takes place.

    There is something known as too much of a good thing and that's where I think the realm of stats falls re CofS.
  17. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    I remember someone giving some talk at an event, and she was telling us about public being inflicted with the Birthday Game in Flag academies, having to run across the room to the dictionaries to save time and all this nonsense.

    I remember that J and I thought this was stupid.

    Since then, I've heard other similar accounts of such idiocy.
  18. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    Yes, you are right. The things that happen in cults are things human beings came up with. Those aren't alien traits from the planet meepxorx, hitherto never heard of on Earth- no, they're human traits.

    Of course the stress and constant constant abuse and indoctrination of the cultic environment brings it out far more, but yes, it's all human nature.

    People can take from it whatever they want after they leave.

    For instance, let's take some idiotic white glove inspection. So it's ridiculous, it's stupid, people are losing sleep, getting screamed at for something they shouldn't have to be doing. But let's say during such a cleaning, Susie Scn'ist learns about a cleaning technique.

    So she leaves in disgust some while later. But she always knows the cleaning technique. That doesn't make her actions cultic. Not unless she's compulsive about it or tries to force it on others.

    This is the same with anything else one learns in CofS or anywhere else.

    It's up to the individual to figure out what he wants to keep, what he wants to jettison and how he wants to use the things he decides to keep.

    I do think it's tougher with toxic traits like you have with staff who constantly KR and stab each other in the back. If the person leaves CofS, he should definitely be aware of those traits and decide not to do them and if that's a tall order- as it could be- then he should get some kind of counselling, maybe from a therapist specializing in cults.
  19. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    That is nuts. Truly.

    I had one- I was a course supv at that ridiculous mission- and they gave me a stat that I'm sure is a Div VI one- new people on course. Well, Div VI was the shits at that place, so they kept screaming at me for not making it.

    Well, sitting in the courseroom, how would I have gotten any new people on course?

    I used to get screamed at constantly for that. I was actually feeling rather hunted.

    Nothing compared to those who worked in the SO, of course, but it still was pretty crappy.
  20. jodie

    jodie Patron with Honors

    This is one of those questions you can really get bogged down in. My way of dealing with it was to get away from it all, and spend all my time in the real world. Spending time with critics brought out the worst in me, so I exiled myself from it all. I found that time completely immersed in the real world was the best thing ever to get my head straight again, and it was easier to spot behaviors that I developed in the cult.

    Each of us is different. I think it is good to question and examine, but not good to go overboard and check oneself for every little thought.

    Given some of the nasty comments from the arsers about you, Emma, I can understand why this is a sore spot for you, but you are doing just great, kid! You are holding up far better than many in your healing, AND you're providing a forum for others to heal too - truly above and beyond the call. No cultist, or programmed person would be able to do that.

    - jodie
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2007