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Culture and love

The Oracle

Gold Meritorious Patron
First, I have to share an L.R.H quote with you, then my own thoughts.

I know when one falls into this hall called the twilight zone one cannot escape the fascination with it until one comes to terms with certain mystery.

It is hard to turn your back on the adventure of a lifetime. It is hard to move on if not impossible from an interest in this subject called Scientology and the people in it.

Because there is a lot of truth within the threads of this culture, and I believe Scientology is a culture.

I think this quote defines one of the basic tenants for this culture and explains much of what we see in the Sea Org:

*************************************************************

S W E E T N E S S A N D L I G H T


FORCE - PART 2


"Get this because I probably won't ever say it again. He's only bogging on force because he believes that everything is sweetness and beauty and light on the part of everybody else's intentions but his.


Everybody's got to love everybody and there's got to be a friendly atmosphere, and he's so convinced that these are the factors which exist, he doesn't dare use force.

No weapon has been as thoroughly suborned to the edict of Man as this weapon called love. There is hardly anybody in the societies of Man today who sufficiently understands this word love, that does other than to use it as a trap.

"Love" is something a person has been convinced of compulsively by other-determinism.

There are levels that are way on up from there, and there is no armor more shining and less dentable than an armor of beauty, faith, trust, love - but you've got to be able to back it up with force. Any time you think you're perfectly free to use all these things in an absence of force, you just might as well go cut your throat, quick".

**************************************************************************


I think about a culture without love or regard for love and there have been many of them that stepped aside from this phenomena. I believe a culture with other priorities can still be valuable.

But I don't know if there would be an entire civilization without it. I don't think there would be art or music or books, as these ventures are created by people with a love for it. I don't know if there would be any children born without it.

And I don't know if the Sea Org as a culture will survive without it.

But doctors can function at healing patients without loving them or even caring about anything beyond making their next mortgage payment, so I think the Sea Org can go on healing pushing the "love weapon" out of its midst.

But I don't know if people themselves can really survive without it.

Certainly the people in the Sea Org love the idea of mattering, being proud, and saving mankind. Otherwise why would they make so many sacrifices? They must love something about the Sea Org? I did when I was there, mainly the other people.

Just thought I would toss this out and see what others are thinking about these this thing that is love and about cultures that live without it?

Is it really possible to be somewhere and not love what you are doing or where you are?

Maybe some of the people there love feeling important?

I was there because I loved the feeling that I was going to matter to the world, and because I loved the people there and wanted to help them. It was because of my love for mankind and the Earth and the people.

Curious as to if anyone was there on terms of love and what you loved about being in the Sea Org, or on staff or just being part of the game.
 
Last edited:

Whitedove

Patron Meritorious
First, I have to share an L.R.H quote with you, then my own thoughts.

I know when one falls into this hall called the twilight zone one cannot escape the fascination with it until one comes to terms with certain mystery.

It is hard to turn your back on the adventure of a lifetime. It is hard to move on if not impossible from an interest in this subject called Scientology and the people in it.

Because there is a lot of truth within the threads of this culture, and I believe Scientology is a culture.

I think this quote defines one of the basic tenants for this culture and explains much of what we see in the Sea Org:

*************************************************************

S W E E T N E S S A N D L I G H T


FORCE - PART 2


"Get this because I probably won't ever say it again. He's only bogging on force because he believes that everything is sweetness and beauty and light on the part of everybody else's intentions but his.

Another absolute. :duh:
I believe there is good and there is bad. I believe there is love and there is hate. That is balance.

Everybody's got to love everybody and there's got to be a friendly atmosphere, and he's so convinced that these are the factors which exist, he doesn't dare use force.

No weapon has been as thoroughly suborned to the edict of Man as this weapon called love. There is hardly anybody in the societies of Man today who sufficiently understands this word love, that does other than to use it as a trap.

And here we go with absolutes again. 'Everybody'. And nobody understand. Except Ron of course :eyeroll:

"Love" is something a person has been convinced of compulsively by other-determinism.

Such bullshit. Talk about being self-centered. And probably he wasnt capable of love which is why he believed this.

There are levels that are way on up from there, and there is no armor more shining and less dentable than an armor of beauty, faith, trust, love - but you've got to be able to back it up with force. Any time you think you're perfectly free to use all these things in an absence of force, you just might as well go cut your throat, quick".

I so dont believe this. This is beyond my level of reality. And this is why we have the world we have. Because of self-centered people not capable of love and using 'force' instead. You cant have love and force together. Love is a free outgoing feeling toward someone. Its caring in the deepest sense of the word. When it becomes force that is where it becomes aberrated. IMO.
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Such bullshit. Talk about being self-centered. And probably he wasnt capable of love which is why he believed this.

The 'source' of Ron's megalomania and control compulsion was his terror. His own terror. Terror of *anything* not totally under 'His' control.

Behind the blustering blubbery superman was a terrified little coward.

Zinj
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Quote:
"Get this because I probably won't ever say it again. He's only bogging on force because he believes that everything is sweetness and beauty and light on the part of everybody else's intentions but his.
WHITEDOVE
Another absolute.
I believe there is good and there is bad. I believe there is love and there is hate. That is balance.
BB
Not saying you're wrong or anything. But love is a tricky subject. LRH likes to use hyperbole. I'd suggest looking to see if there is any wisdom to be gained from his comments here. LRH wasn't really talking about an absolute here. Using a hypothetic example with some hyperbole. Stating a possible situation one might be in. Thats my take anyway.

Quote:
Everybody's got to love everybody and there's got to be a friendly atmosphere, and he's so convinced that these are the factors which exist, he doesn't dare use force.

No weapon has been as thoroughly suborned to the edict of Man as this weapon called love. There is hardly anybody in the societies of Man today who sufficiently understands this word love, that does other than to use it as a trap.
WD
And here we go with absolutes again. 'Everybody'. And nobody understand. Except Ron of course
BB
He's not stating an absolute, " hardly anybody" he says. Many men and women will use love or a lower " harmonic" sex to entrap.

Quote:
"Love" is something a person has been convinced of compulsively by other-determinism.
WD
Such bullshit. Talk about being self-centered. And probably he wasnt capable of love which is why he believed this.
BB
Note that love is in quotes. The implication is the word is not used literally or in the usual sense. I'm still thinking about this one.

Quote:
There are levels that are way on up from there, and there is no armor more shining and less dentable than an armor of beauty, faith, trust, love - but you've got to be able to back it up with force. Any time you think you're perfectly free to use all these things in an absence of force, you just might as well go cut your throat, quick".
WD
I so dont believe this. This is beyond my level of reality. And this is why we have the world we have. Because of self-centered people not capable of love and using 'force' instead. You cant have love and force together. Love is a free outgoing feeling toward someone. Its caring in the deepest sense of the word. When it becomes force that is where it becomes aberrated. IMO.
BB
I said something similar on this thread or another. If one truly grants beingness well, one will not be the adverse effect of another being.
Freedom from PTSness.

If one does that with unconditional love thats very strong armour. One is in a mental condition whereby cannot go effect.

Its a point beautifully illustrated in the kung fu movie, " A Touch of Zen"
directed by King Hu

"At the end of the film, the Zen patriarch Hui Yuan (Roy Chiao) is treacherously stabbed and we see his transfiguration into Buddha as he calmly sits in the traditional Buddhist posture. The sequence is shot in psychedelic colours compounded by the use of colour negative, which could indicate both a Buddhist sense of transmigration and an ontological inquiry: could it be an illusion or is it reality?..........

The transfiguration of Hui Yuan is first indicated by the liquid gold that flows out of his injury which shows him to be a genuine follower of Buddha and one who understands the nature of his own being. "

http://www.sensesofcinema.com/contents/directors/02/hu.html

I consider this in its way the finest Kung Fu movie ever made, it won a prize at cannes back in 1975.

But then as Mandy Rice Davies would say to me, " You would wouldn't
you. " :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandy_Rice-Davies

I guess this use of quotes from martial arts movies and from a regime tottering courtesan isn't in my big " Hubbard Dissemination Course" pack.

But what the hell! I'm a squirrel. I can do any damn thing I please.:)
 

Tanstaafl

Crusader
I'm not posting to defend LRH but there are more definitions of "love" than you can shake a stick at. Any quote needs to be put in the overall context of the lecture or issue of its origin. Plus, the "way" he says it can sometimes be important. E.g. the quote: "My good friend Aleister Crowley" is often rolled out on anti-Hubbard sites but my take on it, when listening to the PDC tape it comes, from was that he said it tongue-in-cheek.

I think the "love" that he is critical of is the low-toned mockery type - the "I can't live without you" type of emotion.

There is some good data on admiration in the PDC supplementary lectures and the following series which I think they recently renamed The Factors (used to be Admiration and the Renaissance of Beingness?).

Having said all that, "love" is something that seems to be in very short supply in orgs, and they would be all the better for putting some there. "Tough love" has it's place too when judged wisely and exercised with true motives.

Love :love4:

tanstaafl
 

The Oracle

Gold Meritorious Patron
I don't get what he is talking about with the love....yes, there can be negative side to anything.

"Traps" can be:

treasure
comfort
rewards
poverty
stupidity
patriotism
justice
food
drugs
mortgages
loans
contracts
identity
pride
freedom
prison

and hundreds of other items.

It is all in the result whether something is a freedom or a trap.

I don't know why he thought most people didn't have a clue what love is.

Most women that have a had a child knows what love is very well.

Even animals provide for their offspring.

I think Hubbard loved his work. He certainly spoke a lot about Scientology.

If he didn't love mankind enough to discover solutions, we wouldn't have Scientology.

At least he DID something to come up with answers and find solutions.

I think he thought if people loved Scientology, that was alright.

But that sure turned out to be a big trap for many so maybe he had some points.

It's always the same game, get in, get the cheese, get out.

It doesn't matter what the item is.

It's profit and loss.

Of course, you gotta know how to add.

:pirate:
 

Whitedove

Patron Meritorious
Quote:
"Get this because I probably won't ever say it again. He's only bogging on force because he believes that everything is sweetness and beauty and light on the part of everybody else's intentions but his.
WHITEDOVE
Another absolute.
I believe there is good and there is bad. I believe there is love and there is hate. That is balance.

BB
Not saying you're wrong or anything. But love is a tricky subject. LRH likes to use hyperbole. I'd suggest looking to see if there is any wisdom to be gained from his comments here. LRH wasn't really talking about an absolute here. Using a hypothetic example with some hyperbole. Stating a possible situation one might be in. Thats my take anyway.

Well than he should of mention that. Because he used a heck of a lot of hyperboles :eek:

Quote:
Everybody's got to love everybody and there's got to be a friendly atmosphere, and he's so convinced that these are the factors which exist, he doesn't dare use force.

No weapon has been as thoroughly suborned to the edict of Man as this weapon called love. There is hardly anybody in the societies of Man today who sufficiently understands this word love, that does other than to use it as a trap.
WD
And here we go with absolutes again. 'Everybody'. And nobody understand. Except Ron of course
BB
He's not stating an absolute, " hardly anybody" he says. Many men and women will use love or a lower " harmonic" sex to entrap.

I agree that there is people that dont know the meaning of love. And that some do use sex but its not everyone. The way he says it love has a negative connotation. And is a bad thing. Sorry. dont agree.

Quote:
"Love" is something a person has been convinced of compulsively by other-determinism.
WD
Such bullshit. Talk about being self-centered. And probably he wasnt capable of love which is why he believed this.
BB
Note that love is in quotes. The implication is the word is not used literally or in the usual sense. I'm still thinking about this one.

IMO its very simple. He says love is something a person has been convinced of compulsively by other-determinism. Now, if he wanted to compare the kind of love he supposely talks about he should of done so because when I read that to me it seems like 'love' is a bad thing. dont agree

Quote:
There are levels that are way on up from there, and there is no armor more shining and less dentable than an armor of beauty, faith, trust, love - but you've got to be able to back it up with force. Any time you think you're perfectly free to use all these things in an absence of force, you just might as well go cut your throat, quick".
WD
I so dont believe this. This is beyond my level of reality. And this is why we have the world we have. Because of self-centered people not capable of love and using 'force' instead. You cant have love and force together. Love is a free outgoing feeling toward someone. Its caring in the deepest sense of the word. When it becomes force that is where it becomes aberrated. IMO.
BB
I said something similar on this thread or another. If one truly grants beingness well, one will not be the adverse effect of another being.
Freedom from PTSness.

If one does that with unconditional love thats very strong armour. One is in a mental condition whereby cannot go effect.

Its a point beautifully illustrated in the kung fu movie, " A Touch of Zen"
directed by King Hu

"At the end of the film, the Zen patriarch Hui Yuan (Roy Chiao) is treacherously stabbed and we see his transfiguration into Buddha as he calmly sits in the traditional Buddhist posture. The sequence is shot in psychedelic colours compounded by the use of colour negative, which could indicate both a Buddhist sense of transmigration and an ontological inquiry: could it be an illusion or is it reality?..........

The transfiguration of Hui Yuan is first indicated by the liquid gold that flows out of his injury which shows him to be a genuine follower of Buddha and one who understands the nature of his own being. "

http://www.sensesofcinema.com/contents/directors/02/hu.html

I consider this in its way the finest Kung Fu movie ever made, it won a prize at cannes back in 1975.

But then as Mandy Rice Davies would say to me, " You would wouldn't
you. " :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandy_Rice-Davies

I guess this use of quotes from martial arts movies and from a regime tottering courtesan isn't in my big " Hubbard Dissemination Course" pack.

Seems we agree on something :D Part of it anyhow. :p

But what the hell! I'm a squirrel. I can do any damn thing I please.:)

I prefer squirrels to pitbulls :D

Whitedove
:)
 

Terril park

Sponsor
WHITEDOVE
I prefer squirrels to pitbulls

Whitedove :)

BB
Still trying to figure out if this is damnation with faint praise or one of the best compliments I ever got. :)
 
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