Does it have to be this way?

[Mimsey Borogrove]

I was reflecting on Leon's thread, and the eventual changing of the guard when COB vacates the post for whatever reason.

Leon, Terrill, Ron Miscavage and Dan Koon and many indi's and free zoners promote the basic worth of auditing, training, while many feel that you can't have a positive Scientology because of the PTS SP / disconnection / RPF technologies inherent in it.

if Scientology was taken over by a person of compassion, who had the belief in the gains, that the beneficial aspects of the study were worth exporting, and way turned back the Miscavagian mind set, and returned to the milder ethics applications of the early 60's & 70's, ceased the practice of disconnection, and focused on delivering the tech, in lieu of the rapine IAS fundraising, would you support it?

Mimsey

 

[George Layton]

I was reflecting on Leon's thread, and the eventual changing of the guard when COB vacates the post for whatever reason.

Leon, Terrill and many indi's and free zoners promote the basic worth of auditing, training, while many feel that you can't have a positive Scientology because of the PTS SP / disconnection / RPF technologies inherent in it.

if Scientology was taken over by a person of compassion, who had the belief in the gains, that the beneficial aspects of the study were worth exporting, and way turned back the Miscavagian mind set, and returned to the milder ethics applications of the early 60's & 70's, ceased the practice of disconnection, and focused on delivering the tech, in lieu of the rapine IAS fundraising, would you support it?

Mimsey

Hummmm maybe, would they abolish all auditing processes?

 

[Mimsey Borogrove]

Hummmm maybe, would they abolish all auditing processes?

I am presuming such a person got gains from them and continued delivering them, though at a fairer price schedule. He is, a person of compassion, bent on salvaging the subject, and much like the mission holders of yesteryear, intent on delivering a kinder, gentler version of Scientology, that was more or less on track with the stated goals - " a society where.. bla bal bla.. " and eschewed the current noxious practices.

Mimsey

 

[Bill]

I was reflecting on Leon's thread, and the eventual changing of the guard when COB vacates the post for whatever reason.

Leon, Terrill, Ron Miscavage and Dan Koon and many indi's and free zoners promote the basic worth of auditing, training, while many feel that you can't have a positive Scientology because of the PTS SP / disconnection / RPF technologies inherent in it.

if Scientology was taken over by a person of compassion, who had the belief in the gains, that the beneficial aspects of the study were worth exporting, and way turned back the Miscavagian mind set, and returned to the milder ethics applications of the early 60's & 70's, ceased the practice of disconnection, and focused on delivering the tech, in lieu of the rapine IAS fundraising, would you support it?

Mimsey

Well, here's the reason that can never happen, in my opinion. Once you open the door to rejecting some of Hubbard's stuff, where does it end? What do you keep and who gets to decide?

The only possible result of the decision to reject some of Scientology is complete fragmentation - just like the Indies. Without a single source of authority and a strict dogma, there will be comprehensive disagreements as to what "works" and what doesn't.

Key to this, of course, is the complete lack of proof or, indeed, any way to prove Hubbard's claims - there is no foundation of provable, valid facts to build on so it's all opinion.

 

[Hypatia]

I don't think da cherch can be taken over and reformed. No. Nor should it be. Too much pain there. It was a cult, it still is a cult and would always be a cult. But that being said, I see no problem with people wanting to audit away from it. They probably should call it something else, though, if they're doing stuff away and apart from da cherch, though, especially since most of them have been expelled and declared.

I used to think that saying "I do Scio but I'm Freezone/indie/whatever" was suitable and made a pretty good line in the sand. I no longer think that.

 

[uncover]

.....
if Scientology was taken over by a person of compassion, who had the belief in the gains, that the beneficial aspects of the study were worth exporting, and way turned back the Miscavagian mind set, and returned to the milder ethics applications of the early 60's & 70's, ceased the practice of disconnection, and focused on delivering the tech, in lieu of the rapine IAS fundraising, would you support it?

Mimsey

NO.....

Because the source of this suppressive mess is NOT Miscavige,simply because the source of the con game called Scientology is the con man El con Hubbard himself.

For example: the insane - and useless - exorcism of imaginery space cooties was invented by exactly this con man in the 60´s (and earlier) and NOT by Miscavige.

If you can´t/won´t see it this way, then this is your personal thing.

Therefore: Give insane Hubbardism NO CHANCE and no support.

 

[Elronius of Marcabia]

I was reflecting on Leon's thread, and the eventual changing of the guard when COB vacates the post for whatever reason.

Leon, Terrill, Ron Miscavage and Dan Koon and many indi's and free zoners promote the basic worth of auditing, training, while many feel that you can't have a positive Scientology because of the PTS SP / disconnection / RPF technologies inherent in it.

if Scientology was taken over by a person of compassion, who had the belief in the gains, that the beneficial aspects of the study were worth exporting, and way turned back the Miscavagian mind set, and returned to the milder ethics applications of the early 60's & 70's, ceased the practice of disconnection, and focused on delivering the tech, in lieu of the rapine IAS fundraising, would you support it?

Mimsey

Nope , but more than that without PTS/SP it would fall apart rather quickly or just work itself
back to where it is now, the mindset of Miscaviage is that of Hubbard.

I obviously don't buy the scapegoating of Miscaviage by the freezone and it's many offshoots.

Miscaviage is guity as hell of many abuses but using him as a dumping ground for the failures
of Scentology is just obviously what it is "scapegoat".

 

[Enthetan]

Nope , but more than that without PTS/SP it would fall apart rather quickly or just work itself
back to where it is now, the mindset of Miscaviage is that of Hubbard.

I obviously don't buy the scapegoating of Miscaviage by the freezone and it's many offshoots.

Miscaviage is guity as hell of many abuses but using him as a dumping ground for the failures
of Scentology is just obviously what it is "scapegoat".

Organized Scientology, with buildings and contracted staff, cannot continue to exist without a method of compulsion. It cannot exist if anybody can just say "this whole space cootie thing is bullshit, where is the proof they exist?". It cannot exist if people can say "the emperor has no clothes".

The whole edifice is based on the foundation that people get immersed in a happy bubble of validation of their gains, and nobody is allowed to stick a pin in that bubble.

 

[strativarius]

I was reflecting on Leon's thread, and the eventual changing of the guard when COB vacates the post for whatever reason.

Leon, Terrill, Ron Miscavage and Dan Koon and many indi's and free zoners promote the basic worth of auditing, training, while many feel that you can't have a positive Scientology because of the PTS SP / disconnection / RPF technologies inherent in it.

if Scientology was taken over by a person of compassion, who had the belief in the gains, that the beneficial aspects of the study were worth exporting, and way turned back the Miscavagian mind set, and returned to the milder ethics applications of the early 60's & 70's, ceased the practice of disconnection, and focused on delivering the tech, in lieu of the rapine IAS fundraising, would you support it?

Mimsey

It isn't the PTS SP /disconnection / RPF technologies as you put it, that makes scientology a bad thing. Scientology is a scam. It claims to have invented techniques (auditing proceedures) that can have a beneficial effect on a person's well-being, and goes on to claim that the reason people are fucked-up lies in traumatic experiences that happened to them millions/billions/trillions of years ago. All this is palpable nonsense.

A person of compassion? If Mother Theresa ran scientology it still wouldn't alter the fact that it is simply a fraudulent money-making operation.

 

[Terril park]

Well, here's the reason that can never happen, in my opinion. Once you open the door to rejecting some of Hubbard's stuff, where does it end? What do you keep and who gets to decide?

We can have our sovereignty and decide what we wish.

The only possible result of the decision to reject some of Scientology is complete fragmentation - just like the Indies. Without a single source of authority and a strict dogma, there will be comprehensive disagreements as to what "works" and what doesn't.

Not necessarily. Some people, MS2 for example, like to nitpick
on standardness. That dosn't necessarily mean anything to
others

Key to this, of course, is the complete lack of proof or, indeed, any way to prove Hubbard's claims - there is no foundation of provable, valid facts to build on so it's all opinion.

Its only ever been in the realm of opinion. People find it useful
or not. I've posted innumerable opinions that its useful. Many to be found on this forum.

 

[JustSheila]

It isn't the PTS SP /disconnection / RPFtechnologies as you put it, that makes scientology a bad thing. Scientology is a scam. It claims to have invented techniques (auditing proceedures) that can have a beneficial effect on a person's well-being, and goes on to claim that the reason people are fucked-up lies in traumatic experiences that happened to them millions/billions/trillions of years ago. All this is palpable nonsense.

A person of compassion? If Mother Theresa ran scientology it still wouldn't alter the fact that it is simply a fraudulent money-making operation.

Yes. Auditing incidents that never existed in the first place with an unproven concept of how the mind and spirit works. So much evaluation, so much bullshit, so much to throw away. Pre-determined EPs and pre-determined statements acknowledging the crazy jibberish of Hubbard as real - concepts people did not have before coming to scientology, concepts brainwashed into them, including the concepts of being part of some special, elite aware group fighting a war against psychs, etc. Yet all of that is the bulk of scientology.

That some of the processes could be used humanely is incidental to the above. That people can sometimes improve by the use of some of these processes is more a statement about the extraordinary resilience of the human spirit than anything. If a person wants and believes he can get better by reciting a mantra, or by walking between walls and touching them, by golly he will!

To a point. No process that doesn't actually directly address a person's personal life and personal goals and relationships is going to have much tangible use or meaning when they walk out the door.

90% of scientology is brainwashing. It takes a lot of squirreling to distill the good out of it. Not impossible, but if it's not done, we'll just have a repeat of the scientology cult control and abuse history. Some of the offshoots of the COS cult are nearly as culty. In time, they'll also get worse, just like COS did, using those policies and tek as it is. Helen Cheng (sp?) comes to mind. (incompassionate Ronzoids, already on a power trip, already had an overcrowded, SO style nursery with unqualified help and one child die in that nursery.)

 

[Knows]

I was reflecting on Leon's thread, and the eventual changing of the guard when COB vacates the post for whatever reason.

Leon, Terrill, Ron Miscavage and Dan Koon and many indi's and free zoners promote the basic worth of auditing, training, while many feel that you can't have a positive Scientology because of the PTS SP / disconnection / RPF technologies inherent in it.

if Scientology was taken over by a person of compassion, who had the belief in the gains, that the beneficial aspects of the study were worth exporting, and way turned back the Miscavagian mind set, and returned to the milder ethics applications of the early 60's & 70's, ceased the practice of disconnection, and focused on delivering the tech, in lieu of the rapine IAS fundraising, would you support it?

Mimsey

If it was THAT as you described above - it would be a mixture of Philosophy's, other religions, some Buddhism coupled with talk therapy using the 12 steps and 12 traditions of Alcoholic's Anonymous and it would NOT BE SCIENTOLOGY!

Oh yeah - I forgot - L Con Hubbard stole the stuff from other's and mixed in some Aleistar Crowley black magic and CIA mind control tactics.

IMHO - ONE can't have Scientology without the inhumane treatment of people. It is threaded into the TECH and you just can't audit it out.

I am just curious Mims - would you charge money for the services as described above and how much for each level and grade?

What is "training" in Scientology? It is a precise science on how to manipulate others. In Scientology - it is used to benefit Scientology. What would you use the training for? Who gets to win?

What would you spend the "billions" on?

What would you do to critics and those that bash and Suppress Scientology and the founder, LRH?

My other question - do you believe Scientology is a science? If so, how do you explain Xenu, body thetans and clusters? Are they there or not. I did not get pneumonia nor a sniffle when I read the story - but I did wee on myself a bit LMAO.
If Scientology were a precise Science - it would work outside of Scientology and by the looks of every Independant Movement out there - there is no "clearing of the planet" - no one is coming into it and the few that do - leave.

Oh...and people don't "believe" in Scientology. It is based on belief, not science. Sure - there are some truths that help but overall - there are too many lies. For example - trust is not at the tone scale per Science of Survival.

By the way, El Tubb's did not even write that book.

Dianetics doesn't work either. I found 'basic basic' on the chain and my pain and confusion did not blow.

Basic basic was L Ron - but I am still reeling from the mind fuck of the Scientology inhumane treatment and tech.

 

[Dave B.]

I was reflecting on Leon's thread, and the eventual changing of the guard when COB vacates the post for whatever reason.

Leon, Terrill, Ron Miscavage and Dan Koon and many indi's and free zoners promote the basic worth of auditing, training, while many feel that you can't have a positive Scientology because of the PTS SP / disconnection / RPF technologies inherent in it.

if Scientology was taken over by a person of compassion, who had the belief in the gains, that the beneficial aspects of the study were worth exporting, and way turned back the Miscavagian mind set, and returned to the milder ethics applications of the early 60's & 70's, ceased the practice of disconnection, and focused on delivering the tech, in lieu of the rapine IAS fundraising, would you support it?

Mimsey

It's a Hubbard mind set.

Or more precisely, his humongous ego. The midget is only a symtom of it.

Hubbard was told that the para-military approach was not going to work, and (I think) he knew it too. But again, his ego....... He failed, and he admitted it to at least one person, I've heard. All he's done is muddy the waters.

 

[F.Bullbait]

Oh...and people don't "believe" in Scientology. It is based on belief, not science. Sure - there are some truths that help but overall - there are too many lies. For example - trust is not at the tone scale per Science of Survival.

By the way, El Tubb's did not even write that book.

I think that is the first time I have ever heard that. Who did write the book? Link to evidence, please. Thanks.

 

[George Layton]

I am presuming such a person got gains from them and continued delivering them, though at a fairer price schedule. He is, a person of compassion, bent on salvaging the subject, and much like the mission holders of yesteryear, intent on delivering a kinder, gentler version of Scientology, that was more or less on track with the stated goals - " a society where.. bla bal bla.. " and eschewed the current noxious practices.

Mimsey

Because someone believes something is good for someone else does not make it so. If they could fine tune it down to where you only used scientology on yourself, then it would be acceptable for anyone using it.

 

[Bill]

Its only ever been in the realm of opinion. People find it useful
or not. I've posted innumerable opinions that its useful. Many to be found on this forum.

Cool! So, from that, your position would have to be that Scientology is not, in any way, a science.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

It isn't the PTS SP /disconnection / RPF technologies as you put it, that makes scientology a bad thing. Scientology is a scam. It claims to have invented techniques (auditing proceedures) that can have a beneficial effect on a person's well-being, and goes on to claim that the reason people are fucked-up lies in traumatic experiences that happened to them millions/billions/trillions of years ago. All this is palpable nonsense.

A person of compassion? If Mother Theresa ran scientology it still wouldn't alter the fact that it is simply a fraudulent money-making operation.

Hey Strat, if you read "The Missionary Position" (by the wonderful Chris Hitchens) you may choose to replace her with someone else to make your point (preferably someone who is not a religious zealot of any denomination).

Just sayin'

 

[freethinker]

Due to the gains to be had by Scientology, in order to survive, they would quickly revert back to those other things you want to take out.

What makes Scientology continue is exactly what they are doing which is why it is still here: false hopes and dreams of immortality. You have to have methods to KEEP them hoping.

 

[Ogsonofgroo]

I was reflecting on Leon's thread, and the eventual changing of the guard when COB vacates the post for whatever reason.

Leon, Terrill, Ron Miscavage and Dan Koon and many indi's and free zoners promote the basic worth of auditing, training, while many feel that you can't have a positive Scientology because of the PTS SP / disconnection / RPF technologies inherent in it.

if Scientology was taken over by a person of compassion, who had the belief in the gains, that the beneficial aspects of the study were worth exporting, and way turned back the Miscavagian mind set, and returned to the milder ethics applications of the early 60's & 70's, ceased the practice of disconnection, and focused on delivering the tech, in lieu of the rapine IAS fundraising, would you support it?

Mimsey

Quite simply put, no.

Fuck you LRon, and your twisted take on reality, fuck you DM for continuing the farce, and fuckity-fuck you anyone stupid enough to continue this mind-raping fucked-up fabrication.
Seriously, are ya'll that gullible?


oi.

 

[Hypatia]

Hey Strat, if you read "The Missionary Position" (by the wonderful Chris Hitchens) you may choose to replace her with someone else to make your point (preferably someone who is not a religious zealot of any denomination).

Just sayin'

I read it. Kind of a hatchet job. Hitchens was not just an atheist but also an evangelical one. Dunno 'bout you but I've had enough evangelism for a lifetime.