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ESMB and The Freezone - let's have it out!

Discussion in 'Freezone, Independents, and Other Flavors of Scien' started by Emma, Jun 22, 2008.

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  1. Boldgirl

    Boldgirl Patron Meritorious

    How true. I guess admittingly part of my exit therapy has been posting against these FZ cult members.

    But then again, I feel worse sometimes knowing that not only do we have to dismantle the C of S but now there IS another group out there doing people harm with false promises of cultist technilogy and thinking they are saving the world too... Thats TWO groups that the world would be better off without....now somehow you cant take this persoanll FZ's. I didnt even know you existed before this board. You are obviously people that feel you are helping people. But having you around helping people legitimately is preferred versus you keeping the con alive and harming people's psych whether you believe it or not.
     
  2. Escalus

    Escalus Patron Meritorious

    And if that's what i was claiming as a reason for the existence of the fallacy you'd be correct.
     
  3. Boldgirl

    Boldgirl Patron Meritorious

    Great posts--so well written, and SO SO RIGHT. I am sitting here in shock that people cannot see how conditioned they are. Conditioned is being nice...mind controlled is what i really wanted to say.

    I wish for them all that they snap out of it, I want us all to be normal again....ok maybe not normal-that would be too dull.
     
  4. Boldgirl

    Boldgirl Patron Meritorious

    Righto! For me I take that statement a step further to expalin the 'relief' people report with auditing and then people take it to the next level of -well it must be true and be valid......

    this is a fine distinction point to be made....

    I love this thread...but I do have to go to work but I cant leave the board until I at least make it to catch uo to the last thread.
     
  5. Boldgirl

    Boldgirl Patron Meritorious

    agreed---there is a positive to understanding what the hell you are reading but thats not what Hubbardonian study tech was developed for!
     
  6. Mick Wenlock

    Mick Wenlock Admin Emeritus (retired)

    Let me take a swing at this one.

    First of all - what does "all foggy" mean? When I went to Newcastle University there were many words I did not understand but I never felt foggy, except in the student union bars. Before Scientology I never, not once, experienced any of the "phenomena" so lovingly described by Hubbard to do with study problems.

    So - first of all - the student would have to be trained into having those reactions. Much like scientologists are trained into all sorts of responses that they wouldn't normally have.

    Secondly if they were studying a Hubbardic work then, according to KSW, they are merely supposed to be duplicating it - not arguing about it. And there, in a nutshell, is why Study Tech does not work. It was originally conceived of as a way to force scientologists to not argue, not debate but instead, passively acquiesce to whatever they are being told. After all, if you did not understand what Hubbard had written it could not possibly be because it was un - understandable rubbish - oh no it had to be because

    a) You did not understand the full definition of the word "the" "an" or "or" even though you had been using them your whole life.
    then
    b) Failing that, you are full of false data
    then
    c) failing that you are a heavy drug case
    then
    d) failing that - you have many overts
    then
    e) failing that - - you have many MWH which is why you are now trying to run away from this insanity called study tech
    then
    f) You are an SP.

    Not once in that admittedly OTT sequence is there room for

    "Hubbard did not know his arse from his elbow"

    The whole concepts of a) supervisor and b) study tech are false.

    Students need teachers. People who understand the material and, if necessary can engage in Socratic discourse to lead the student out of ignorance (from ex- duco - to lead out of, educate) and into the light of education.
     
  7. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    OK. What is the reason for the fallacy?

    I say that it is a lack of critical thinking skills. They don't know what an ad hominem fallacy is.

    But they do know what a "wrong target" is. And that can be the entrance point to winning the argument and instructing them how they just lost it.

    It is a lack of critical thinking skills that got a person so enmeshed in Scientology.

    And it is the understanding and use of critical thinking skills that gets them out.

    By the way - the Data Series does NOT CONTAIN critical thinking skills!
     
  8. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    Yes. Go with the flow.

    What you resist you become... So careful about resiting L. Ron Hubbard too hard... else you will become you-know-who... not in name... but in your attitude and thinking... like looking down on others, etc.

    You know what I mean.

    How to get rid of something requires quite some skill that sometimes borders on magic.

    .
     
  9. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    Where is Lionheart?

    .
     
  10. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    Talk about yourself... not me.

    .
     
  11. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    Ah, but I'm not a republican, either. I'm pretty right wing in some respects but am pro choice and some other stuff like that. I tend to dislike most liberal political views (with a few exceptions) and am only SLIGHTLY happier with Republicans. If you put a gun to my head and said I had to pick one, it would be Republicans but I'm by no means happy with them.

    I'm more of a Libertarian.

    I won't vote for Obama at all. I'd have been happier with Hillary Clinton. I'm pretty sure, though, that Obama is likely to be our next president.

    I voted for Ralph Nader in the last two elections. My answer to people who said I was throwing my vote away was "Well, this country allows a person to vote for someone not in the major two parties (Dems and Reps) so if YOU have a problem with it, then feel free to lobby to make voting for third party candidates illegal. As long as I have the option, I'm voting as I please."
     
  12. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    From where I sit I am seeing that each person has created their on Scientology.

    I used Scientology in such a way as to help others, and I think that I did a damn good job of it.

    Now I have found something better.

    .
     
  13. Ladybird

    Ladybird Silver Meritorious Patron

    It would not matter if the course supervisor knew the materials the student was studying or not. Supervising is not teaching, supes are there to make sure the student is applying "study tech".

    As to "word clearing", top students at any school have used dictionaries for centuries! Hubbard did not invent dictionaries, he just found a way to use them to further his own purposes of confusing the shit out of people so they wouldn't notice his hand in their pocket.

    Look up all the different "methods" of word clearing...there are 9.
     
  14. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    Lionheart rode off on a White Horse into the Sunset, with his trusty servant by his side.

    But I get letters from him from time to time. He's got a condo in a vacation get-away spot somewhere in Spain, where windmills still turn, and gallant chivalry still blooms, even to this day.
     
  15. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    I thought Hubbard ripped off study tech from the research of Charles Berner. Alan posted about that a couple of times. Hubbard didn't credit Berner for the work and in fact got rid of him soon afterwards.

    Are you suggesting Berner's years of research were to this same end?

    Paul
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2008
  16. SchwimmelPuckel

    SchwimmelPuckel Genuine Meatball

    Dopeoff.. Not a symptom af MU's, but rather of being brainwashed?

    :duh:
     
  17. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    My wordclearing made people brighter for real, and brought about an understanding unique for that person, and not what could have been intended.

    When a person simply could not agree with something, I never insisted that he must agree with it. I let him work it out from which viewpoint it could be so and from which viewpoint it wasn't so.

    I always let the person maintain his or her own viewpoint.

    My mantra was to reinforce self-determinism, or even get a person to the point of pan-determinism. This was always appreciated.

    .
     
  18. Mick Wenlock

    Mick Wenlock Admin Emeritus (retired)

    Its the avatar that does it - now I may have a Scottish wildcat as my avatar but it's a male cat..

    yeah rastas can be fun to be around, for a little while anyway.


    The stat is from the cofs figures - I was in charge of memberships for the CofS when the IAS first started so I had access to them.


    I disagree - people do not challenge the reach, it is when someone says "I am going to wotsisnames ashram so I can learn to levitate" that the cynics among us suspect that this person is only rowing with a single oar.


    Yes, indeed it would. Please prove your assertion that a "good spiritual discipline hastens the process.." I do not think this is correct at all.

    Of course I am, I am an SP. "spiritual technology" is a tautology. It is used by people who try to make their woo woo sound like it has a basis in the real world instead of the fantasy world it comes from.

    we agree - I think. But I think my reading of it it may be more charitable than others.

    You have yet to address my question about whether you think Hubbard was nuts or was a liar when he wrote dianetics. Don't feel singled out, Vinaire always has a problem with this as well.

    So can we get a link to the research, the studies and the results then?


    both cults have waaay more members than the CofS and both seem to be rolling along - but it's an opinion only. The Krishnas have yet to recover from the horrifying child abuse that was rampant in the 80's.

    All cults abuse, some get found out.

    Excuse me? Brief release? sounds like a gain to me - as you have not provided what YOU mean by a gain we are dancing in the dark here.



    "Scientology is good and original. Unfortunately what is good is not originl and what is original is not good"

    I don't seriously think you are trying to suck people in - you seem to be up for debating which, IMHO, is great!


    ah, a subtle reference of mine that was waaay too subtle. Oh well.

    I was referring to some emails that Ogger sent during some of his more insane moments.
     
  19. Escalus

    Escalus Patron Meritorious

    I don't know where logical fallacy comes from. To me it's a lot like just a defense mechanism. It can be engaged in by all kinds of folks. probably anybody and everybody if they're cornered, desperate, or think that's all you need to do to get out of the IT'S A TARP.

    Anyway the issue, originally, was whether or not a logical fallacy was enough to blow me off, and I assure you

    it isn't because... you know... it isn't. :nervous:
     
  20. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    I'm not going to take up that point.
    Hubbard wrote a lot of contradictory stuff. Just as you are picking out some bits to bolster your argument, I used to ignore the bits in study tech I found harmful (in my opinion) when supervising. There is data in the study tapes about allowing a student power of choice over data, i.e. reject it if you wish. I would allow a student to reject something Hubbard said if he wanted to, providing he appeared to understand what it was he was rejecting. If you want to say but that violates KSW, go for it. It's too late to Comm Ev me for it.

    This is simply an amplification of your point, which is not in my understanding of Study Tech. I could probably dig up a quote online about "power of choice" over data if you want. If I thought Study Tech demanded that the student agree with whatever Hubbard said I would hold it in utter contempt.

    Students don't necessarily need teachers. It depends how good the study materials they have are. Have you ever tried to learn a piece of Microsoft software using MS "help" files? (Rhetorical question!). A couple of years back I did the European Computer Driving License and Advanced ECDL courses at Newcastle College. The courses basically consisted of self-study with a computer program and pack, the pack being say 75 lessons, each one on a small part of MS Word, or Excel, or Access, etc. There were staff there called tutors, who tried to help out the students who needed it, but who didn't teach the stuff. In my opinion, the study materials for those courses were GREAT. There were very few times I needed help from the staff. Trying to learn that stuff in a group setting with the teacher lecturing the students wouldn't have worked at all.

    But would I want to learn sky-diving from a pack like that? No.

    Paul
     
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