ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at

ESMB and The Freezone - let's have it out!

Discussion in 'Freezone, Independents, and Other Flavors of Scien' started by Emma, Jun 22, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Ladybird

    Ladybird Silver Meritorious Patron

    Cat's Squirrel, I mean no disrespect, but it seems you don't know a whole lot about this scientology stuff. Maybe it would be a good idea to find out what it is all about before you defend it or pin your hopes for enlightenment on it.

    Please feel free to ask any questions you may have about scientology, there are many people here who have studied scientology, and most of us have rejected it. It has been my observation that many of the people hanging on to the "tech" haven't really studied it. They just know "It works for ME!" "I had wins", etc...without even knowing or caring how those "wins" were created.

    Here is what Hubbard meant by "blanketing". (It was one of his made up words.)

  2. FinallyMe

    FinallyMe Silver Meritorious Patron


    I kinda skipped over a lot of this thread because I have an opinion on whether to permit FZ'rs to advertise. Personally, every time, e.g., Terril starts in, my response is "Oh, shut up already." I've just started to skip over his posts because he is so predictable, same old advertisement every time. However, I prefer the idea that everyone gets to speak, and I love when the FZ'rs are told by the rest of us to knock it off. Self-governing, if you will, seems like a good idea to me.
  3. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    My comments on them, based on experience up to 1996:

    Method 1: Possibly useful in clearing up earlier-similars. Somewhere it got side-tracked into clearing up every m/u in the person's current lifetime, or something. The "EP" of "recovery of one's education" is BS. I didn't get much out of mine except the ability to do courses without star-rate checkouts, which was valuable to me.

    Method 2: Ghastly stuff, that may pick up an occasional real m/u but is based on a false premise that if the meter reads while someone is reading something aloud then it read on an m/u.

    Method 3: Very useful, very very useful when done properly. I've written several posts on the subject. Definitely my favourite method of debugging a student.

    Method 4: Waste of time. Worse, as it teaches people that wordclearing sucks.

    Method 5: as "spot-checking", it gets misused by using it to try and locate a student's "m/u" as if he only has one.

    Method 6: Seems useful in theory, maybe, but not done very often except in the form of "Key word lists" on checksheets.

    Method 7: Useful to some extent.

    Method 8: Do they do that still? I sup'd a couple on it once and it took months full-time. Then I read that it should be done TWINNED, which would take years full-time in my estimation unless you used a child's dictionary throughout.

    Method 9: Great as a punishment if you don't like someone! OK--go and M9 KSW.... Can be useful, but very labour-intensive, not so bad if you twin up students to W/C each other.

    In bad hands, any of the above suck bigtime. In good hands, M3 is magical.

  4. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    Are you my sister or brother?

  5. Mick Wenlock

    Mick Wenlock Admin Emeritus (retired)

    I'll pass on the comm ev Paul but I am somewhat puzzled that you say that you used study tech not in the way Hubbard specified it was to be used - in which case, while I think you were smart why would you be defending "study tech" when you disagree with it?

    I'm kind of lost here - how many wins sessions after study did you have where people were roundly rejecting Hubbard's assertions?

    LOL - though I did teach myself to program RB5000 from their manual.

    I see we are going to run aground on the shoals of definitions here. I presume the tutors were there, not to check for misus or spinniness or blow phenomena but to help you understand the materials?

    well you would only get it wrong once.

    Interesting that you pick skydiving - something I learned in the SO at Flag.
  6. Mick Wenlock

    Mick Wenlock Admin Emeritus (retired)

    why are you saying its a quote from me? It's not - t'was ladybird.

  7. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    Sorry--don't know how that happened. I fixed it.

  8. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    I would agree.

    I never thought I was really getting the MUs on "M4." Also, I could never find the idea of "F/N Everything" to be workable.

    I find "M6" quite useful when tutoring Mathematics. It works because i understand the basics of mathematics very well.

    "M3" basically is a very relaxed method and works because it is a relaxed method to bracket the area of confusion and narrowing it down to a misunderstood.

    "M9" is useful when I know the MU is there in a certain area but hard to be spotted using "M3." I only use it in a small area after narrowing down to it with "M3."

  9. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    We have different views of it. I see some bits of it as useful, and some as not. Just as with Scn generally--I find some bits useful and some not. I am not pro-Scn and I am not anti-Scn in such black and white terms.

    One, at Saint Hill, and it was thoroughly embarrassing. No student in his right mind would brag about how he disagreed with Hubbard and "got away with it" or something like that. The woman who gave that win was generally looked on as pretty crazy, by the way.

    Since they didn't know about those things, they didn't respond to them. They mostly worked with the students by trying to explain the materials in different words. Since the materials were very well written in the first place, and they didn't know about looking earlier, this met with mixed success. They also did necessary admin functions, but in terms of debugging students they generally sucked.

    Yeah? That's interesting. How did that come about?

  10. Cat's Squirrel

    Cat's Squirrel Gold Meritorious Patron

    I stay well clear of that book, I consider it VERY restimulative. It amazes me that the Church sell it freely at the same time as they tell people that reading the OT3 and NOTS materials can make them ill.

    As for how much I know; people can and probably should judge that for themselves. I've got a good set of Ron's books passed on to me by my stepdad who was a long time scientologist, and some others I bought here and there (including some of Jon Atack's, who wrote "A Piece Of Blue Sky.") I've read a lot of it but not all. I've also read a good bit of freezone stuff (Pilot, Flemming Funch, Filbert's Excalibur, Ouran etc.). God bless the Internet.

    I'm with Dulloldfart's comment here;

    "We have different views of it. I see some bits of it as useful, and some as not. Just as with Scn generally--I find some bits useful and some not. I am not pro-Scn and I am not anti-Scn in such black and white terms."

    I probably tend to cherrypick the bits I like, but that's what we all do. I've just admitted that I don't think much of The History of Man, but Christians are fond of quoting John 3:16, they're not so keen about quoting that line in Deuteronomy about how you can't enter the Lord's kingdom if your balls have been crushed, or the end of Psalm 137; God will be pleased if you dash Babylonian babies' heads against the rocks.
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2008
  11. SchwimmelPuckel

    SchwimmelPuckel Genuine Meatball

    You are exasperating cat! - Ok, discarding bad stuff and sift out the good. That's a thinking mans approach anyway... But that was most definatly NOT what Hubbard had in mind!

    The man was poisonous! - So you will have to watch that you don't swallow some of the bad stuff that he hid in the spaghetti logic.

    To answer something you mentioned earlier.. About the SP/PTS tech.. That's is where some of the venom is!

    That piece of 'tech' is what drives scientologys hatred towards mankind and all his works. It is what 'justifies' creating a safe 'theta' environment, or in other words the siege mentality, bot physically and mentally. Isolating oneself by not reading news and ignoring any adverse opinion.

    When on staff this works like an Orwellian nightmare. SP's can be anyone and everywhere. When some stat goes down the scilons go on the hunt for the SP. Should the stat crash coincide with someone new starting on staff he or she might get blamed for that crash. SP powers are as recognized as the OT ones.. So it's driven on stats, updstats are not the SP's, the downstats are. But there exist a policy (or bulletin) that explains that some SP's hide by being upstat!

    Indeed Hubbard tells us that: 'The tonelevel of society can be raised by eliminating people below 2.0 on the tonescale'.

    Now, what we need to realize is that SP's have a similar functionality for CoS as the Jews had for Nazism. A common enemy, who's to blame for everything and do not deserve to live. Thus the scilons become comrades in arms in the righteous war against the vile SP's.. Who can conveniently be anyone.

    Even oneself.. And believe me, you are acutely aware of the fact as a staffmember.

    So.. I don't know how that works when you never was on staff. And even studied those texts in the FZ whre there is no continous pushing the SP paranoia home... You get to think for youself with it I guess.

    But this is the germ of the Gestapo like organization that is CofS. That's KSW and all the scripture about SP's and PTS.

    (BTW.. History of Man is hysterically funny!)
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2008
  12. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    I think this is a wonderful post and says why this forum is so successfull.

    Very interesting analysis. I shall do one of this thread as a whole.

    Many in the FZ have had similar losses. In comparison mine were minimal.
    I was always happy to go out, have a few beers and some fun. A dilletante of sorts. Was two stages for me, leaving staff, an auditor specially at my " beck and call" so's to speak [or vice versa;) ] to run sec checks ad infinitum. Some
    guilt and I worked for a further 3 months without pay as atonement. Same pay as before really. :) And then leaving after my final weirdo auditing alledgedly a CCRD. I was still loyal, but had the loss of my bridge. I have some idea of how that is hurtfull. In all this I somehow never managed to recieve any horrific wrong indications. Apart from " not clear". However managed to bring the " best C/S ever ", at St. Hill, to realise the error of his/her ways.

    I Never participated any more. Till I found the FZ.

    I think this last is for many the most difficult aspect to face. One of the big problems is stuff like the issue where LRH tells that those leaving the SO are degraded beings. ESMB clearly helps those who are lost and suffering. So
    does the FZ. 90% of those that read here probably lurk. Still seems that 30-40 people a month come to the FZ. I've in travelling and back here in the UK not been able to post on ACT and ARS, for reasons known to Gods and techies. Some i guess arrive after being here.

    The only advertising is my FZ success stories thread, and of course people don't have to read this.

    I beleive the complaints are about the posts of freezoners on general threads. This comes down to freedom of speech.

    You know everyone loves you. :)

    Glad Alanzo does again:)
  13. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    God help us:(
  14. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    Way to go on mastering the quote function, Teril!!!

    It was becoming quite the PR flap for the Freezone! :)
  15. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    When I started out in Scn I took Hubbard's stuff like anyone else's, seeing if it made sense and if so great, querying the stuff that looked weird, and so forth. After a bit I pretty much just swallowed it all whole as I couldn't see anything wrong with it. Ahem.

    Now I pretty much try to do it on the basis of none of it is worth looking at unless I already know it is useful.

  16. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    I don't believe COS has attacked the FZ for around 18 months, and that was a very minor attack on one old meter man. Other than that nothing for years.
    That was a local UK attack not OSA central. I know the person and he is probably a volunteer rather than staff, and it may have been on his own determination. OSA seem to have lost the capacity to attack FZerts, at least while anons are around.
  17. asagai

    asagai Patron Meritorious

    No, that's not a modern CofS supervisor technique. It is pure LRH supervisor tech. I ran courserooms in the 70's and it was one of the standard handlings that LRH taught us. It is not a case of not-knowing the materials, it is supervisor tech to never explain or interpret the materials, but ask instead "What do your materials state?"
  18. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    But it can be applied rotely when what the student has in front of him doesn't answer his question. I found it a lot quicker to find something that quickly answered his question and he would then happily get back to his course. I didn't give a fuck if it was exactly per the drill or not.

    Of course, if the sup doesn't know the answer you can't do it like that. :)

  19. asagai

    asagai Patron Meritorious

    Hubbard took other people's research and perverted it towards his goal to make men his slaves. I would lay you odds-on that he took Berner's work and added his own mind-controlling twist to it.

    It's what he did!
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2008
  20. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    They must have. Its not " copyrighted" by COS. You can't do a maths course at university without knowing the symbols. Maybe some lecturer told the meaning.

    I too defer to Paul. He's had EXTENSIVE experience here, nearly two decades worth and has written more intelligently in the past than anyone else in the fz forums in this subject. I too am experienced and its my greatest skill.
    I've never been in the position of having to M4 someone because they disagree with an issue. I never did M4. I did the nitty gritty hard work M3,7,9
    and was unofficial word clearer to the course room.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.