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ESMB Poster "David Mayo"

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by Dulloldfart, Apr 18, 2011.

  1. Hatshepsut

    Hatshepsut Crusader


    We have many many of these the next block over. The whole town is a natural dichotemy. It's probably to keep the pollutants from falling on the plants

  2. Jachs

    Jachs Gold Meritorious Patron

  3. VaD

    VaD Gold Meritorious Patron


    Glad this thread turned to something substantial (with MEAT to it) and *Good for Life* things (discussion of those, like gardening).

  4. CarmeloOrchards

    CarmeloOrchards Crusader

    There are lot of theories as to why bees are dying off across the planet. I won't go into that. Without having any global answers for this, I'm pretty certain that there are LOCAL answers.

    When my wife and I realized that the bee population in our orchard and flowers was way down, we brought bees to our yard. I contacted a bee keeper, and he put bees in our yard, Beekeeping requires attention. Between Teri and I and the bee keeper, we keep our bees healthy. We get the benefit of pollination and some honey. The beekeeper has remote assistance.
  5. VaD

    VaD Gold Meritorious Patron


    It's not what "the Planet is doing". - Has never been. It's just humans. It's just their (humans) bad influence onto Nature..
  6. Mark A. Baker

    Mark A. Baker Sponsor

    Actually there are reasons having to do with the physics of air masses and the nature of the terrain. Consult your local meteorologist for details. :coolwink:


    Mark A. Baker
  7. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    I'm sort of lucky. [ A cross I've borne all my life]

    We have bees nesting in the roof space of the roof extention. Every year
    they send out new hives with new queens. Our new neighbours [ Ghurkas]
    were a bit scared that they congregated on a tree in their garden. They then went elsewhere, close I expect as our house backs onto preserved forest despite being in London.

    A few doors away we have a Bee keeper. He says our bees are tough bees,
    in that they survive very well with no problems and no assistence.

    Possibly the height of the hive, above the second floor, means some of the bee parasites can't climb so high.

    Anyway the flowers love them and our garden attracts much admiration, as do neighbouring gardens. Not much into all this but we have flowers 9 inches
    in diameter flowering until frost kills them. Tyhats late in London:)
  8. chuckbeatty

    chuckbeatty Patron with Honors

    I follow the articles on the online news magazine called "Religion Dispatches", and recently it or another religion blog, contained an article of one of the then major, but today minor and almost dead, 1930s bible thumping ministry in NYC.

    The point of the article is that this ministry, due to the way it was setup, it's inevitably going to decline into non-existence.

    It is my argument, that Scientology is NOT of the same mold as these "fly by night" ministries or smaller splinter Christian groups that die off usually within a generation of their charismatic founders.

    I'm just regurgitating the view that is already known in new religion studies, that these fly by night Christian ministries which are too self-centered just die off after their founder minister leader dies.

    Scientology was NOT so set up.

    Informally I've been bringing up this unfortunate reality about Scientology, almost since I've joined this internet conversation/observation/criticism of Scientology.

    I do think that Hubbard unfortunately wrote SO MUCH admin policy, that it wraps mainly the lower level staff UP into Hubbard's "high wine" of inspiration of the high flying job of being a staff member. (Until the staff wise up, and quit, which the overwhelming vast majority DO QUIT, eventually.)

    But my point, or rather the point others have made already, which I'm just regurgitating, is that official Scientology has staying power due to the inspirational (to those who are still holding the fort as staffers at all levels in the Scientology bureaucratic setup) writings of Hubbard for the staff.

    In my OEC Course Sup experience, all editions (there's been 3 or 4 editions) of OEC Volume 0 alone, "jazzes up" a staff member who completes that volume. It is written with Hubbard's inspirational style, and it really can have a lasting effect on a staffer, to read the major "Basic Staff Hat" volume, I saw firsthand for years, when I was an Admin Course and OEC Course Sup.

    With the zeitgeist change, more younger generation having checked out Scientology on the internet before deciding that Scientology is NOT for them, of course, that whole, this whole generation of western and worldwide sophisticated young people will NOT fall prey to Hubbard's hype, I grant.

    But for the 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation Scientology kids, who get offered up by their Scientology parents, to join the Sea Org, THOSE are the ones who I think are unfortunately being duped the most by Hubbard's staff hatting writings, and who are for family reasons (they've been Scientologists essentially from birth), and for Hubbard's writings reasons, the ones who are tomorrow's potential faithful, who will keep the movement slumbering along (usually until their lives start shattering due to their parents defecting official Scientology, or they defect and pull their parents out of official Scientology, and both kids and parents are evolving into the independents).

    With this very vocal independent movement of Scientologists who are mainly operating like loose canon field groups, meaning they are NOT admin policy diehards and thus NOT being sticklers to force the OEC policy down each other's throats to each other's detriments, I think inevitably, the future of Scientology will play out somewhere between a milder "take" on Hubbard's policy scriptures, that the independents (who consider themselves full blown "Scientologists" but thankfully they are NOT fanatical in following Hubbard's self-punishment penalty admin writings, to their credit).

    People unfamiliar with the wall of Hubbard's actual operative staff writings (including Hubbard's voluminous upper ranks staff private despatch orders and strategic planning and programs, etc, etc), there is a hope for the swift decline scenario for Scientology. That would be likely were Scientology more like the fly by night Christian ministries and to the really wonky offbeat new religions.

    But Scientology is in Lorne Dawson's writing an "established cult" and I think Dawson doesn't know just how MUCH admin writings Hubbard wrote which ARE so consuming of the staff who DO hold the fort in the Scientology "churches" and church management and the front group echelons!

    Those Hubbard admin scriptures ARE being taught, over and over and over, and over, by the setup of "staff study" for the staff, particularly in the Sea Org echelons.

    Miscavige is just a current major "cross ordering" wrench in the Hubbard "machine of policy scriptures" factually.

    When Miscavige dies, my argument is that the staff will go back to their books even MORE!

    Hubbard's voluminous and very relevant (to the staffers that is) admin writings intricately constrain staff and parishioner’s behavior.

    I better just hold off, and wait till I retire, see what the independents do in leaching off official Scientology's parishioner base, and see if Marty withstands all the PI and other damage control Miscavige throws at Marty and other independents. And I am curious as to any growth that the independents can generate from the "raw public" on their own, since the independents seem MORE a cleanup and repair Field Auditor/ARC Break program setup cleaning up the upsets that official Scientology is creating on its parishioner base.

    If official Scientology reformed sufficiently, it would dry up the independents' business opportunities.

    There are so many factors that play into Scientology's forward motion.

    Xenu and "body thetan" education and explanation, I support, and I think are the most effective and honest way to lay out Scientology to anyone new to Scientology.

    Xenu and "body thetans" are two of the most significant current beginner dissemination omissions of both independent Scientologists and official Scientologists.

    These two concepts ("Wall of Fire" tragedy caused by Xenu, and the resulting "body thetan" spiritual problem that is handled by Hubbard's OT 3 telepathic exorcism procedure) should be simply and clearly defined by ALL Scientologists for the general public.

    When Xenu and "body thetans" are part of Scientology's catechism, and Scientologists learn how to talk about these words openly and fully, then I'd have some of my long-term unhappiness with Scientology "handled".

    J. Gordon Melton said to me that Scientology's able to keep their members in line quite effectively, and even he didn't make the point I think will outlive ALL of us, which is the damn vast amount of Hubbard admin policy is just so interwoven, and it tells the staff what to do on "autopilot" (I like to call it).

    It's the 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation kids that get on staff, read the admin policy, who get plugged into Hubbard's "autopilot" system.

    The independents are NOT so plugged into that admin system. Independents seem hard pressed to even set up to HGC or Academy level operation.

    I'd say long range, were Scientology to settle into a saner "religion" setup, I'd say the HGC and Academy level setup, minus all the Sea Org, minus the CLOs, the ILO and minus Int Management, but just loose HGC and Academy setups, is likely long-range the "place" where I think Scientology will settle into, ultimately.

    If MORE Marty Rathbun Casa Blanca's, and more "Academies" pop up, then that's when I think would long-range be somewhat sane. Then Scientology would have to stand on totally it's merits as a pseudo-scientific-fraudulent-science-fictionesque-pastlives-dead-space-alien-exorcism/therapy "religion".

    And it will be the old game of kids being suckered into their parent's "religion" or dodging their parent's religion, if they can. (Scientology's strict disconnection/excommunication and long list of "SP Acts" keeps parents and kids toeing the line, which Melton DOES understand to a large degree).

    Official Scientology with all it's money, if I could mind meld you the final LRH intentions, Hubbard TOLD the top guys, like to Miscavige and to Starkey, that LRH wanted HIS wealth to go to CST, to the archive project, which is the metal plates inscribed with ALL of Hubbard's WHOLE technical and admin policy scriptures and ALL of his research, and the metal plates are in the underground bombproof vaults (they have 3 or 4 of these sites now) and they've wasted 50-100 million bucks already on this Hubbard fantasy.

    So, I think the final falling apart of Scientology, will rest on Miscavige. But I don't even think he can "tank" Scientology by his blunders, honestly. I think Hubbard's auto-pilot policy scriptures will give the diehard staff the blueprints to keep reinventing the Hubbard setup over and over, no matter what bad leaders making mistakes they allow dominate the staff setups.

    Starkey knows LRH's final years of intentions, and a half dozen others besides Miscavige (mainly ex ASI staffers) are privy to the ASI writings, but for the official movement to really hold on, and NOT be gobbled up by the independent trend that IS self generated by people who do take Hubbard's spiritual writings seriously and seem quite capable of maintaining their beliefs without a huge amount of visible defection from the independents ranks (not that I've noticed at least), to me, this all means the Scientology subject will fall somewhere towards where the independent Scientologists are with their field therapist/exorcist groups. (We'll see if the independents have defectors, not the OSA troll defectors, but defectors who get fed up with Scientology, even the independent Scientology and who get OUT of Scientology into "other practices" or 8th dynamic activities more their liking).

    Scientology is a therapy and exorcism "religion" /practical philosophy (therapy pseudo-science). I think due to their OT 3 exorcism, NOTs exorcism, and SOLO NOTs exorcism, it makes them MORE of a religion, they just don't want to promote their OT 3/NOTs exorcism is all (it's immediately too space alien outlandish UFO-ish, and exorcism generally has a bad name also).

    What happens when Miscavige goes, and when other new top ranks leaders "discover" all that LRH wrote in his final years, and to what degree these 2nd. 3rd, 4th generation Scientology kids turned tomorrow's staff leaders do, that will be crucial to Scientology "dying" or not.

    It's gonna be a century or more.

    Who knows, maybe we'll get visited by some real UFOs from the Marcab Confederacy in the next century or two, and then Xenu will be vindicated, and we'll learn that the details of the volcanoes was just Hubbard's poor memory, but that YES, we ARE spirits, we DID have a surplus of "body thetans" who WERE implanted (not for 36 1/2 days, but actually it was 39 and 3/4 days) and we do live forever, we have lived way long ago in other space civilizations, and that Hubbard has it somewhat right.

    Not likely, but that's how it "could be that way" (from the Study Tapes, the drill about "How Could It Be That Way?").

    Obviously Hubbard wrote his science fiction imagination/mind into Scientology spiritual theory, and Hubbard's spiritual ideas are NOT going to be vindicated by any UFO visitors confirming LRH's OT 3/NOTs theory!
    Last edited: May 1, 2011
  9. degraded being

    degraded being Sponsor

    If they all end up like a lot of mixed bag new agers with all sorts of versions of things i don't personally care about them. I would like to see them with no power and no money.
  10. chuckbeatty

    chuckbeatty Patron with Honors

    No, you've made your point.

    And besides the admin scriptures' pitfalls, the spiritual beliefs of Scientology are clearly problematic.

    Xenu (the Wall of Fire, the 4th dynamic engram with the 36 1/2 days of R6 implants) and "body thetans" are omitted vital info which should be included in a full answer to the question, "What Is Scientology?"

    I think the big solutions, since some people will continue to remain Scientologists, are to 1) soften and cancel the admin totalitarianism, and 2) be open about Xenu and "body thetans."
  11. freet43

    freet43 Patron with Honors


    Bees dying off - many scientists are studying this and are perplexed. I was discussing this with a friend just yesterday, and she shared that many beekeepers are now removing ALL the honey from the hives and feeding the bees High Fructose Corn Syrup!!!! because it is much cheaper.

    Do they really need to wonder why the bees are dying off!!!


  12. Infinite

    Infinite Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller

    Great post with lots for me to ponder. Personally, I don't think Scientology can be reformed without a full investigation and trial in regard to the long-term on-going criminal conspiracy of its management. If Scientology is genuine in its wish to benefit society then it must "render unto Caesar". Also, there are so many pernicious aspects woven into the entire belief system, that reform seems to me impossible. If practitioners pick'n'choose what they want, then it is no longer Scientology by its own definition. Hmmm . . .

    I've snipped that vignette from your post because it just struck me - L Ron Hubbard must have had doubt about his own tech to have insisted that it be preserved in such a manner. If the tech actually worked, there would be no need for the impervious preservation of it. Perhaps a bit of a stretch but, again, hmmm . . .

    Thanks chuck.
  13. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    It's the Prime Directive. Hubbard achieved his goal:

    "Living is a pretty grim joke, but a joke just the same.

    "The entire function of man is to survive. Not for 'what' but just to survive...

    "I turned the thing up [The Dynamic principle of Existence: Survive!] so it's up to me to survive in a big way.

    "Personal immortality is only to be gained through the printed word, barred note or painted canvas or hard granite.

    "Foolishly perhaps, but determined nonetheless, I have high hopes of smashing my name into history so violently that it will take a legendary form even if all the books are destroyed.

    "That goal is the real goal as far as I am concerned.

    "Things which stand too consistently in my way make me nervous. It's a pretty big job. In a hundred years Roosevelt will have been forgotten - which gives some idea of the magnitude of my attempt."

    L. Ron Hubbard, from his 'Excalibur letter' of August 1938
  14. Lol! Terril, you and I are definately related...I have bees that swarm each spring, too.

    Plant more flowers, everybody!!! :D
  15. Caliwog

    Caliwog Patron Meritorious

    I don't think that's the case, Chuck. I still have a lot to learn, but I think this may have been true for David Mayo and the AAC. I do *not* think it is true for Marty Rathbun - I think he's blindly faithful to LRH and *all* of his policy.

    I know that when I've tried to point out on Marty's blog when DM's actions are based in green-on-white policy, those comments get censored, so I'm guessing Marty is happy to hide some of these more abusive policies from his readers.

  16. Caliwog

    Caliwog Patron Meritorious

    I think that's more evidence that he was a megalomaniac and a narcissist.

  17. freet43

    freet43 Patron with Honors

    and not that it makes it ok...

    but it is NOT uncommon for someone that created something of value, to later become a megalomaniac, paranoid and die in a sad state....history is full of such examples....

  18. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    Right. But there are plenty of people who aren't in either camp. Unfortunately, though, a number of them are fans of a certain Free Zoner with an insane family member and will countenance no criticism of him. That reminded me waaaay too much of CofS. "Sorry, up statistic! You can't say anything!"
  19. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Scientologist: "Do you have a few minutes? I'd like to tell you about the Bridge..."

    Wog/Raw meat: "No thanks! You're one of those Scientologists. I've heard about Scientology. That Hubbard guy was nuts, a paranoid megalomaniac."

    Scientologist: RESPONSE A) "Ah... Sure he was, but that was later. He only went nuts later in life."

    Scientologist: RESPONSE B) "Mr. Hubbard was quite sane."

    Wog/Raw meat: "Really? Then what about all that stuff on the Internet about him writing - back in the 1930s - that he was going to smash him name into history and make Napoleon look like a punk, and then that stuff from the 1940s where he went on about making men his slaves, and then those kooky letters he wrote to the FBI in the 1950s, and..."

    Scientologist: RESPONSE A) "OK, so he was nuts all along, but he gave Mankind the Bridge to sanity and spiritual freedom anyway. He even told us the history of the universe."

    Scientologist: RESPONSE B) "Oh, that's false data which has been fed to you by Suppressive Persons. Mr. Hubbard didn't go nuts until later."

    Scientologist: RESPONSE C) "That's false data which has been fed to you by Suppressive Persons. Mr. Hubbard was quite sane. People think he was crazy because he went into seclusion to research levels beyond anything that had ever been attempted before, and bad people took control of his organization."

    Wog/Raw meat: "Gee, I really have to go now."

    Scientologist: "But, but..."

    Wog/Raw meat: "Bye."
  20. Caliwog

    Caliwog Patron Meritorious

    What does that have to do with Hubbard?