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Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by jennifer, Sep 22, 2007.

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  1. nexus100

    nexus100 Gold Meritorious Patron

    It isn't easy to stay destimulated in the face of such overwhelming rationality. But doesn't it seem a bit high-handed to assume that the por' lil' critters out there lack your capacity to understand, and if they did all would be well? Isn't it discounting their experience, intelligence, judgement, just a tad? Isn't a belief in native superiority a trap in itself?
  2. The Oracle

    The Oracle Gold Meritorious Patron

    That was a letter from Yeats father to Yeats. I don't think Yeats was pts at all. A lot of what I need to invalidate as self stops becoming part of myself when I invalidate it. Validate means more or less to celebrate something. I totally get your meaning and I think it is very important for people to focus on what is right. Nevertheless, constant self invalidation has been the keystone to my evolution. And that has truth in it as well. So, it hasn't been out ethics for me. It would be out ethics for me to imagine that everything was perfectly alright from where I stand. I find great comfort in the thought that I am still a handicapped fuck up. It keeps me in proper harmony and truth within this prison planet, and it is exactly what I am.
    If I deluded myself to think anything different I would cease my corrective chapter. That would be out ethics.
  3. Bea Kiddo

    Bea Kiddo Crusader

    Are you....

    Are you....

    Are you being....


    of me????

    You trying to get cans placed in your hands? :wife:

    Dont worry. I love all of you and would never try to pull your withholds.
  4. Leon

    Leon Gold Meritorious Patron

    "It would be out ethics for me to imagine that everything was perfectly alright from where I stand. I find great comfort in the thought that I am still a handicapped fuck up. It keeps me in proper harmony and truth within this prison planet, and it is exactly what I am."

    OK. It works for you.
  5. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    That's an avatar from my past life. :)

  6. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    Well, I have primarily focused on clarifying my understanding of the Vedic basics using LRH materials. I have not tried to understand LRH materials by themselves in isolation.

    From that point of view I am greatly indebted to LRH for increasing my understanding. I would say that my understanding of the basics have increased a hundredfold because LRH happened. It is hard to give a precise number here, only a ballpark magnitude.

    As far as auditing goes, LRH methods were successful in knocking down the barrier, which I could not knock down myself. Once the barrier was down my spiritual progress has been by leaps and bounds.

    The value I put here on LRH is entirely based on what I have personally benefited from him. Now when it comes to others benefiting from the same materials, I would say that a lot of consolidation, simplification and reorganizing of LRH materials is needed to increase their effectiveness.

  7. Bea Kiddo

    Bea Kiddo Crusader

    Thank you. But what would your percentage be then?
  8. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    Please don't throw your case at me. You are assuming a lot.

    Get into present time! And then read again what I wrote and comment on that.

    Thank you.

  9. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    Ethics condition may be applied by dynamics as in the action "Condition by Dynamics." It is squirreling to mix the dynamics when applying the conditions. Conditions assigned on post should be applied strictly to one's third dynamic, and not be mixed with one's condition on the first dynamic, which may be quite different..

    Applying ethics conditions to first dynamic approximates self-auditing, and one has to be very careful in not crossing the line.

    One moves through lower ethics conditions very, very fast when these conditions are correctly spotted, and there is a grave danger of overrun when one gets into figure-figure over a lower condition.

  10. Björkist

    Björkist Silver Meritorious Patron

    If only Vinny practiced what he preached...
  11. Leon

    Leon Gold Meritorious Patron

    figure-figure is never a good idea.
  12. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    On enemy condition, one is supposed to cognite on the valence one has unknowingly assumed, or one is dramatizing, which is inimical to the interests and activity one is supposed to be engaged in.

  13. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    What does it mean to be basically good? It means that original postulates made are survival postulates. What does it mean to be basically powerful? It means that one has the potential to as-is anything.

    Ethical behavior is rational behavior, which is in harmony with the postulates and considerations one is operating on. Departure from ethical behavior takes place as that harmony is destroyed.

    Restoration of ethical behavior requires a recognition of points of departures from ethical or rational behavior and not becoming "reasonable" about it.

    One does it by first getting oriented properly in the present time (formula for Confusion), then locating one's original postulates and considerations from which the departure took place (formula for Treason), and then looking at the current postulates and considerations one is operating on (formula for enemy), and then comparing them (formula for Doubt) to become aware of how the departures and lack of harmony came about.

    One does not start a life-time as a "blank slate" on which anything can be written. That is a Semitic viewpoint which thinks in terms of indoctrination. One actually enters a new life-time carrying with him his postulates and considerations from his previous lifetime. He is, obviously, disoriented in the beginning. So, one actually enters a new lifetime usually in a condition of Confusion.

    A new baby works on moving through the conditions naturally, and does a good job of it unless interfered with. He manages to orient himself with respect to the new body and a new environment. His entire focus is on making the body grow and making it operational. He is able to recall the controls to the body how they should be, and then gets busy putting in those controls one by one.

    It is incorrect to think that a child's beingness is determined by his environment. The child is very self-determined unless his self-determinism is heavily interfered with. He is dealing with the situations he encounters the same way as adults do. He uses whatever resources he has to cope with them. It is natural and simple.

    I think that the essay above contains too many additives.

  14. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    Self-correction takes place very rapidly and almost naturally through the application of lower conditions in that sequence.

    Confusion --> Treason --> Enemy --> Doubt etc.

  15. Bea Kiddo

    Bea Kiddo Crusader

    This is fascinating to me, Vin. Reflecting on my childhood, this opens a question for me.

    Being raised in the SO with no father and a mother who was never around, I learned to grow up very fast. I learned to do all the household chores at the age of five.

    I remember trying to fold a sheet when I was 5 and getting so angry and bursting into tears. It was too big and it kept falling on the floor. I actually got so upset and angry I was biting the sheet!!! I finally figured out to stand on top of the washer and fold it that way.

    My point was that I had to figured out things on my own.

    So, I just want to know how this relates to ethics. I have done things to solve something and it has been considered out ethics. And I have seen the same with other Sea Org children.

    I am just wondering your take on this.
  16. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    One hundred percent in applying what I have understood.

  17. Bea Kiddo

    Bea Kiddo Crusader

    Oh, you are impossible. It's ok.:coolwink:
  18. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    It would have been out-ethics if you had given up.

    But you confronted the problems and ultimately solved them. That is the ethical (rational) way to go.

  19. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    Well, what I don't understand even after making every attempt to understand, I simply deep six it.

  20. nexus100

    nexus100 Gold Meritorious Patron

    I read what you said. Your experience is yours, not anyone else's. You are heavily connected to a group that still venerates a technology I find unworkable and ethics is part of the unworkability. In your comments you skated through the tech like a slalom, avoiding this, taking that and withall you sit the throne of righteousness. It is bizarre to read. IF I threw my case at you it wasn't without provocation. I think under the circumstances I was, and am, practicing moderation.