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EVIL - I don't get it

Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by Auditor's Toad, Jan 10, 2011.

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  1. Auditor's Toad

    Auditor's Toad Clear as Mud

    Help me here. Help me understand how one snaps into being evil.

    C'mon, you know what I mean. A person goes " up the bridge" feeling they have completed level by level, the CS agrees and they are "allowed" to attest.

    A person is on post after post and does well enough to keep getting " pulled up the org board".

    Then whamo, one day it is " discovered" that all along this person has been EVIL and fooled absolutely everyone for years and years with all those false attests and false stats.

    And, by golly, even though their area was "upstat" way over yonder that crash was mysteriuosly caused by this newly found EVIL person.

    And, yep, there are far far more of these evil people that have to be weeded out than anyone ever suspected.

    The most highly trained tek people? SP's!
    The most loyal SO members? SP's
    The most trained admin staff? ? SP's
    The most highly processed public? Sp's

    The more training and the more processing one gets the more likely they are going to be discovered as an SP.

    This all makes sense.........right?
  2. skydog

    skydog Patron Meritorious

    This is one of several questions I would like to ask the demented midget under oath. My list is several pages long now.
  3. Auditor's Toad

    Auditor's Toad Clear as Mud

    I mean there are people I knew, trusted, and very much looked up to and the next morning they are gone-banished.

    How, over the years, have I missed so many people right around me that were EVIL and had to be ushered out ?

    Have I lost my wits?
  4. Auditor's Toad

    Auditor's Toad Clear as Mud

    I forgot to mention my period of observation is a mere 39 years.

    I'm thinking about starting a thread on OT VIII's...ya know, some of how some of them are not doing so good... well the those who haven't already left.

    Anybody like horror stories from the " top of the bridge" ? They do abound!
  5. shadow

    shadow Patron with Honors

    This is the "black and white" thinking: if your on my side you are good, if you are not fully in agreement with my side, you are evil. Also, I am so good that I give you the benefit of the doubt until you prove to me that you are not good-then POOF! You're gone.

    For most people, the black and white thinking that is normal during the childhood period becomes shades of grey with experience and maturity (hopefully prior to the hair getting grey). If the black and white thinking continues, it can ruin interactions with others because it is too rigid to accept anyone who has any differences (if I am white, and you do not agree then you are black, different, enemy, evil). This taken to the final conclusion is severe paranoia (-think Hubbard in his later years).

    Think of the evolution of movies. The good guy used to wear a white hat and was all good; whereas the bad guys wore black (films were black and white so it was easy to pick out who to root for). Most movies now have characters that are more rounded like real people-some good some not-so-good. The only thing is that they always have better come-backs in the movies that in real life.:confused2: How many times in the movies is the "bad guy" the one you did not suspect?
  6. Coyote13

    Coyote13 Thought Criminal

    What about the tech? Too bad hubbard didn't create any tech to, with 100% certainty, be able to spot a pts/sp person, like some kind of pts/sp course, then they would have been able to spot the SPs before they even got a foothold. Or maybe a device that can measure peoples intentions, or like some other way using scientology to spot these "evil" people early on. Maybe if they had a course to be more at cause, they could create a universe without SPs. Too bad they don't cause if they did, there'd be no more issues with SPs in the church. Scientology works, period! (sarcasm :) )

    To me that shows the absurdity of their claims that the "tech" works. Perhaps "evil" is an awareness that the tech doesn't work, so yes, by scientology standards, one can just snap into "evilness". Believing you can do something or have a certain ability is not the same thing as actually having it. Thinking outside the scientology box and having questions is extremely evil and dangerous to the cult of scientology, it threatens profits and control, in my eyes and experience. It always amazed me that more people didn't ask this question, and that no scientologist would address this, just send me to ethics or make me pick up pieces of trash.

    Good post, eh, this is the kind of question that allows us to break free from the mindfuck. It always amazed me that more people didn't ask these kinds of question, and that no scientologist would address this, just send me to ethics or make me pick up pieces of trash. Ask questions, trust your instincts, just because someone else says its so with authority, doesn't make it so. Logic and rationale and connecting dots are a good thing, it's not being banky or pts or suppressive. Think for youself, question authority. Peace and blessings.
  7. NeXTep

    NeXTep Patron with Honors

    In a totalitarian system those in charge can define what is good or evil at will. That's no different in the CofS.
  8. afaceinthecrowd

    afaceinthecrowd Gold Meritorious Patron

    Good stuff, AT!

    The farther I went up the bridge, the longer I was in, the deeper I went into the “inner circle” at Flag and was in daily contact and close proximity to Hisself the more and more this whole “Evil/PTS/SP” construct of El Ron’s made no sense to me. As I neared the day I walked away, I began to…secretly…conclude Hisself was describing what was truly in his heart.

    I saw a lot of good folks get cruelly nailed, unjustly railroaded and viciously vilified…I never bought that they were suddenly or were so secretly so “bad”...I kept my mouth shut but I always smiled and said hello if they were still around…even if they were on the RPF (got KRed a few times for that, too)..

    One of the things that began to really gnaw on me in my latter days in the SO and Scn was just how heartless a “Scientology Planet” might just turn out to be and was not a place I would want to live in.

    Last edited: Jan 10, 2011
  9. Auditor's Toad

    Auditor's Toad Clear as Mud

    That is the point. In the C o $ they claim to be the white hats that produce even whiter hats.

    Reality, by their own proclamation of SP declares, is that they produce more black hats in their own ranks than they had said previously existed in all mankind :)

    And all the while they claim their much vaulted "power" level " will crack the SP case".

    Do they 'handle' the SP or throw the SP out into the unsuspecting world to wreck havoc. Uh, that was too kind for words, eh?

    Now, again, which ones are the white hats?:roflmao:
  10. Auditor's Toad

    Auditor's Toad Clear as Mud

    Yes, I made a point of going up to people on the RPF or the RPF's RPF and talking to them and doing my best to have a conversation while the IC was fuming but dare not interupt me.

    And a scn planet? Dear God what a horribly frightening thought. They'd very quickly shoot me and all my real friends.

    They are a harsh lot with a real mean streak.
  11. NeXTep

    NeXTep Patron with Honors

    That's right, but normal human behaviour, which shows that the CofS or their members are acting as mere homo sapiens and proves the point that their tech is not creating the highly acclaimed homo novis.

    Just to elaborate this a bit further. IMHO, one of the wrongest stable data from Hubbard is: "Man is basically good". In the pursuit of "being good" the highest crimes in history have been perpetrated, and the CofS is no exception. "Being Good" means that you take sides in one way or another and judge the "Bad Hats", that cannot be the goal for any religion or philosophy.
  12. anonomog

    anonomog Gold Meritorious Patron

    This belief gnawed at you during the latter days.
    Was it (that belief)the final straw that grew heavier and heavier until you couldn't continue anymore, or was there a balancing factor e.g I'm clearing the planet; that helped justify that way of life for you for a little longer, and for a short time at least out weighed the above belief?

    If an SO member said to you that s/he sees the bad points in Scientology but is ...*clearing the planet*..How would you counter that reasoning?
  13. afaceinthecrowd

    afaceinthecrowd Gold Meritorious Patron


  14. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    Excellent observation! :thumbsup:

    I recently questioned the validity of Hubbard's claim that "all Men are basically good" on another thread and was crucified by a few for saying such a heretical thing! :confused2:

    Concepts of "good" will always involve some opposite concept of "bad" (viewed negatively), and even Hubbard himself somewhere correctly explained how ALL concepts of "good" and "bad" are nothing more than ARBITRARY social conventions. Whose "good"? As defined by who? People who talk about "the Good" are often stuck at some very high level of mental abstraction where the word in actuality has little or no meaning (outside the thinker's overly-active imagination).

    These crazy groups nearly always follow the maxim:

    The ends justify the means

    They imagine (wrongly) that THEY are the ONLY "good guys". And, that everyone else is wrong. They have no problem at all with doing ANYTHING to bring about their "ideal scene" (as they imagine it to be in their deranged minds). Harming others in the name of their "wonderful cause" is not a problem for them.

    Sadly, "thinking you are right and seeing everyone else as wrong" tends to be a part of any member of anything, since you wouldn't have joined in the first place if you didn't think that this group possessed some "more accurate or better answer".

    In religions and political groups, especially though, this willingness to HARM in the name of your belief can grow out of control.

    Stalin's Russia
    Hitler's Germany
    Christian's Holy Inquisition
    Mulsim Holy Wars
    Christian Holy Crusades
    Christian Spain's decimation of the native Indians in the name of "civilizing them and bring them to God"

    And, let us not forget:

    Hubbard's (and DM's) Scientology

    Someone once said:

    The Road to Heaven is often strewn with many dead bodies . . . . :bigcry:

    I also saw many very decent people, people who I liked and thought well of get declared, tossed in the RPF, removed from posts, etc.

    Scientology wastes people. It sucks everything it can out of you and then spits you out, without any care at all, to rot.

    Last edited: Jan 10, 2011
  15. Auditor's Toad

    Auditor's Toad Clear as Mud

    " Scientology wastes people. It sucks everything it can out of you and then spits you out, without any care at all, to rot ".

    Oh, you mean like a lemon? Squeeze all the good stuff out and throw the rest away?

    Yeah. What a management style. It is not too uncommon in the military.
  16. RogerB

    RogerB Crusader

    Toady :D

    The quick short answer is that we've all got this shit in the make-up of our existing condition. Just that decent folks have it submerged or under control.

    Then, for some, something "keys in" or triggers them, and they "lose it" . . . . sometimes it's as simple as being continuously needled and provoked until the individual snaps in anger or fury . . . and away it can go.

    You can also check ESMB for the numerous write-ups on something Alan called the "Ascension Crash and Burn Phenomena" . . . . . . it's different, though sometimes can occur with the snap above . . . but it is the sequence wherein one ascends UP in a huge win into the next higher level of case one has . . . . and realize up there is case you failed to handle properly last time you were up there with those abilities and powers . . . and they get misused; and away you go again into nutsville.

    There's been a lot of this crash and burn shit in the CofS. You know, "OT's" turning screwy.

    I mention this in my Pasadena presentation.

  17. Free Being Me

    Free Being Me Crusader

    One of the factors regarding me leaving $cientology is the OP of this thread. If da tek can spot an evil sp gleefully producing ruin, why isn't da tek spotting these nefarious critters throughout society in real time? $cientologists supposedly are the most ethical people on the planet yet $cientologists are the one's being declared sp.
  18. Auditor's Toad

    Auditor's Toad Clear as Mud

    I absolutely agree with you. There are land mines, hand grenades, & booby traps in the tech.

    What I'm trying to point out is that there are people ''hit" on the whim of somebody in power. The person "hit" is a good person - sometimes and outstanding person - and all this is brought to bear by some senior.

    With the wide variations of 'policy' for a single given act by one individual there is policy to support giving a kha khan - and also policy to make it merit being declared SP.

    I always been of the opinion that anything can be done with policy as it just depends on whom is reading it and what they want to do with it.

    Aside from the pitfalls and vagrancies inherit in the tek there is that snake in the woods that rears it's head and slaps down good people who have managed to avoid the perils - up until the blindside from a snake.
  19. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    I would love to get an actual NUMERICAL FIGURE of exactly HOW MANY people have been declared who had been Scientologists at some point in their lives.

    Are there any recent complete lists floating around with the names of ALL declared SPs?

    I don't doubt that the number of declared SPs equals ot beats the number of actual "active Scientologists". THAT is one helluva outpoint.

    Of course the lemmings in the cult would explain it (using Scio-logic) in this way:

    "Why of course! Since we have the ONLY workable tech on the planet, and since we are hugely WINNING to clear Earth, naturally the SPs spot this and come to us in huge numbers, joining our ranks in an attempt to infiltrate and destory us! Thus, when we spot them somewhere in the organization and declare them as suppressive, the number of declared SPs increases!"

    - unknown overly-indoctrinated Scientologist

    The big flaw in that being that nobody outside of the Church, nobody except the brain-washed cult members actually beleive this nonsense, that Scientology has the ONLY workable tech on the planet, and is hugely WINNING at its purpose to clear Earth.

    :duh: :whistling: :no:

  20. afaceinthecrowd

    afaceinthecrowd Gold Meritorious Patron

    These are excellent questions.

    It was not this single belief alone that led to the “last straw” but one of many…along with personal interaction with El Ron, working in the “inner circle” and seeing first hand numerous orgs, interacting with public from top Mission Holders and Celebs all the way to Newbies. I was, of and on, privy to stuff that most SO, let alone public, knew nothing about and a “Gump” in the immediate crowd when some of the “Landmark/Watershed events happened from ’mid to late sixties to the early to mid ‘80’s.

    Eventually I will complete posting “my story”—“What I Bought Into and Why”—here on ESMB but, due to circumstances, it will probably many, many months before I complete that task. I have already extensively posted much about my overall “Take” on my life and times with El Ron, SO, Scn and the “Tech”.

    Specifically to your questions:

    My whole time in Scn and the SO was one of a balancing factor. I never bought in to “Clearing the Planet” per se…I had some experiences in my early auditing that were…and still are…significant. I had things happen with me that non Scns, even people that were anti Scn observed and went, “wow”. I now know realize that I was a seeker, a reacher, a quester, a person that aspired to “Walk the Earth” and “stuff” was most probably bound to happen with and to me anyway but, as I was a young, well educated and literally “off the farm” young adult, I attributed my “realizations” to Scn, “The Tech” and perforce to El Ron.

    All I ever wanted was to learn, to know, to understand and help others and to help make a better world and life for humanity. I wanted to be part of and contribute to something “good”, worthwhile and I damn sure wanted everyone to have the opportunity to “feel” what it’s like to have “realizations” such as I had had. That’s what the “Lever” was to the “balancing factor” (perfect phrase) that I struggled with throughout all my years “in”.

    In the interest of my wish for anonymity at this time, I’m not going to detail the road I walked and every specific about what led me to walk away but I will relate briefly, and have said in more detail in past posts on ESMB, much about this.

    Most importantly for purposes of this discussion is that I worked with and knew El Ron, personally. And, I either worked with or knew personally and interacted with Mary Sue, Capt. Bill, Urq, Mayo, Rinder, Rathbun and Da Monster.
    I will not try and speak for another SO member…I can only speak for myself. I believe that the concept of “tipping points” is real…has to do with “self ordered critically, fractal geometry and chaos theory”, which I will refrain from discussing at this time. IMO, we all have our own “tipping point”. I know I did and, when it happened, NOTHING BUT NOTHING was going to stand in my way. Although “despondent and desperate” at that moment, an ethereal almost “mystical” calm and clarity set in and I “structured and designed” my walking away—went through some real bad shit coming out but, by the Grace of this Universe and some real decent, patient and kind folks (which are IMO the Grace of this Universe) I made it and the rest, as they say, is history.

    Personally I don’t think there is anyone—including El Ron and Da Moster—that doesn’t know, to a greater or lesser degree, that there are “holes” and worse, much worse, in Scn, “The Red Tech and Green Tech” and the entire construct. The “squirrel cage” (pun intended) is that part of the “Tech” is that if it’s not working on you or for it’s ultimately “your fault”; if it’s not working in the orgs it’s “their fault”; if it’s not working for someone else it’s “their fault”: it it’s not working in the World it’s the “Worlds fault”.

    So, “If an SO member said to you that s/he sees the bad points in Scientology but is ...*clearing the planet*..How would you counter that reasoning?”

    I might ask, “Have you ever thought about the concept, ‘The end justifies the means’?” Depends completely on the circumstance and circumstance is all about that moment and its existing pent-up context for each individual party involved in that Dialogue.

    There is no Silver Bullet, Red Pill or Blue Pill.

    I see “tipping points” as random, progressive and chaotically sequential. I wouldn’t “counter that reasoning” re “clearing the planet”. I would listen and question, depending upon what I have patiently gleaned as my “take” on the persons “frame of reference” from my own “frame of reference”. I wouldn’t seek to be a “tipping point”. I would wish only to have the opportunity to maybe be a “grain of sand” that adds to the self ordered criticality of their “pile” and my “pile” that may, or maybe not, lead to some form of “shift”. I personally would wish to hopefully be a “sign post” on their way out of the Labyrinth; I would never aspire to be “The Signpost”.

    SO members have lived secluded, hectic, frenetic and chaotic lives of enforced “context” by others, inadvertant self enforced "context", enforcing “context” on others and inadvertantly enforcing "context" on others and making others do same. The last thing they need is another “severe reality adjustment” or probing quasi “Sec Check” or “finger” pointed at them.

    Last edited: Jan 11, 2011