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Ex-member of the CoS- Brian Cox

Discussion in 'New Member Introductions' started by 2briancox, Feb 21, 2013.

  1. MissWog

    MissWog Silver Meritorious Patron

    Thank you Brian I very much appreciate you taking the time to reply!!

    I'm very scared that more people will die because of your beliefs but I do not want to argue with you on your own thread so I will just leave this alone. A scientologist ignorance & hubris speaks for itself. Very sad and very deadly!
  2. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    An earlier post mentions the video, on the Elma FZ Center's website, which features "The Magic Thetan" as, "L. Ron Hubbard's top OT level tech tester and trouble shooter, OT 8, [who] did attentional levels under Ron's personal tutelage..." It's noteworthy that, this assertion, although a fabrication, goes unchallenged in the FZ milieu.

    The same video also features Freezone "advanced OT auditor" and convention organizer Rey Robles. Rey Robles' briefing to "All Loyal Officers" ["Loyal Officers" from Hubbard's "Incident 2" of 75 million years ago] is posted on this thread.

    For any curious lurkers, here's a taste of what awaits someone who completes the mostly common-sense-based Lower Grades and, then, goes on to the "OT levels." This content is from the Class VIII course:


    As for Scientology tech's handling of the mentally ill, well... [HCOB tech content in red.]:

    HCO BULLETIN OF 23 January 1974


    I have made a technical breakthrough which possibly ranks with the major discoveries of the twentieth century. It is certainly the greatest achievement of 1973 and is now being released after a final write-up of the research. It is called the Introspection Rundown.​



    Psychos in ISOLATION




    The anti-Scientologist

    H,E&R, Human Emotion and Reaction

    Homo Saps


    Here are some more excerpts from the 1976 edition of the 'Red Volumes'. It's an HCOB from January 1974.

    In 1970 the actual cause of PSYCHOSIS was isolated... In the ensuing years this has been proven beyond doubt to be correct.

    But what is a psychotic break?

    Man has never been able to solve the psychotic break. In fact, human beings are actually afraid of a person in a psychotic break and in desperation turn to psychiatry to handle.

    [And here Hubbard goes on about psychiatry, ice picks, electric shocks, etc., then...]


    [Then there are the steps of the RD, and the HCOB ends with...]


    [Then there's the HCOB of February 1974, titled...]



    In a person in a psychotic break, it is necessary to isolate them...


    In 1951, Hubbard had written in the book, 'Science of Survival', of quarantining those who were Judged to be chronically low on the "Tone Scale," with a handy method of determining placement on the Tone Scale being the person's opinion of Dianetics.


    This friendly "warning label" has been provided as a public service. :)
  3. Natalie

    Natalie Patron with Honors

    Yes I do.
  4. The_Fixer

    The_Fixer Class Clown

    I agree with this. Good points Infinite.
  5. The_Fixer

    The_Fixer Class Clown

    Welcome Brian! I just have to say something here in regard to your comments.

    I have had some experiences with the mental health system here in Australia with my son.

    This has mainly been through the public health system which is free here. Indeed, most people with serious mental issues use this system as they are unable to function in a work environment generally and have no way of funding private care whilst they are in a welfare situation. I would assume this would be a similar scenario in the US, NZ and the UK.

    The system does often leave a lot to be desired at times. To be fair to these people, they are desperately underfunded, under resourced and overloaded. In any kind of a system, this is a certain recipe for disaster, yet the system functions to some degree and there are some success stories.

    I have found a lot of the professionals to be somewhat arrogant, cold and opiniated (often signs of a burnout). The patients really do need someone on their side keeping an eye on things and their welfare in general to voice concerns when things don't appear to be going right, because quite often their concerns are ignored or considered to be acting out. Quite often the patients don't recognise what effects the medications or treatment is having and they need someone who knows them to help out there. Those left on their own often end up falling through the cracks and their stories often don't end well. So, family and/or friend support is a crucial point.

    Having said that, there are also many professionals who are fantastic at what they do, just limited by resources as to how much they can do.

    The private sector often has better care, but that is for the realm of the financially better off families. I say families, because mental healthcare is absolutely a team effort, not just left to the professionals.

    One of the biggest problems the patients have is that they are mentally disabled (duh!). Before you laugh at that, this is why they are where they are. But also it is the biggest stumbling block in their care and self management. Their thinking is flawed and they cannot see things the way we do or do things the same as well. It is a very long process for them to learn self management and many really are incapable of doing so - depending upon the severity level of their condition. And like many of us so called normal folks, well, sometimes we just don't really want to! A lot of them develop a sense of comfort (used as a relative term here) in their little world and cannot see the need to change.

    It is really quite unfair of Scientology to judge psychiatry when they point fingers and criticise when they will not make any efforts to fix the problem themselves. They have a go at some, but bear in mind they will only treat the readily fixable (usually those who only need to learn a little self discipline) and won't touch the others that only the psychiactric system is left with.

    This too me indicates they are too arrogant to lend a hand and/or don't have the solutions. I think both. They make a lot of noise about everyone else, but do squat themselves.

    How does Scientology deal with schizophrenia, Asperger's, autism, bipolar, or the myriad of conditions? They don't. "We'll pick it up next lifetime". They have no idea what to do and make excuses to avoid the issue. Calling them degraded beings is one such excuse. Is kicking them into the gutter and leaving them any better than a psychiatrist trying to get them on the level to some degree?

    None of the above conditions have a cure at this time. I comes down to management and medication if necessary. There is a massive amount of research going on into mental illness and there are slow but progressive breakthroughs. We just don't have all the answers yet. So we can't just condemn the system because it doesn't suit us, unless there is something better to replace it with.

    Psychiatry and its related fields, including medicine, will readily admit their shortcomings. Scientology will most definitely not and do not research anything other than how to make more money and gain more control. At least these systems have more people who actually care about you. I know where I'll take my chances.

    Just for the record, my son is under supervision of psychiatrists and psychologists. He is not on meds anymore and is sort of managing. We have gone through a lot of doctors, diagnoses, drug addiction (prescription types) and hoopla to get there. It seems we have finally found some balance for him. He is now diagnosed of having an acute anxiety disorder. We were going up the Asperger's path for a while there and was eventually discounted. After a few suicide attempts, his management became more urgent.

    Last year we went to a family friend's son's wedding. At the reception, I was seated next to Dr. Bob (retired) who was the family's GP. His specialty was in anxiety disorders and ADD. I found out that his own son suffered these and killed himself at a relatively young age. We got on well, and spoke a lot about mental health in general and I learned a few things about anxiety disorders as well. It was interesting to meet a right person at the right time for me.
  6. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    What you wrote above as "one of an auditors most important tasks" would not ring a bell with most auditors. Perhaps things have changed, but I've never encountered an auditor who believed that one his most important tasks was what you just described. For the most part, auditors are the well meaning "dupes" of the Scientology operation.

    Perhaps you can come up with some other, more realistic, examples. :)

    In any event, the poster of this thread is not likely to be much interested in a lengthy discussion of Scientology vs psychiatry. He's already used the 50 year old Scientology line, "Scientology is not for everyone." That's an old round-about way for Scientologists to blow off troublesome non-Scientologists.

    About all that can be hoped is that he'll have his Scientology lower grades and, then, take some time off from Scientology before allowing himself to be made into a glass Humpty-Dumpty, in L. Ron Hubbard's image, by way of its "OT" levels.
  7. 2briancox

    2briancox Patron


    I have a lot of agreement with what you're saying here. But with a small difference ...that makes a lot of difference in how I see things ...

    Ron changed over the years. In the early part of his forming of Scientology, he said things like "If I look back on Scientology years from now and I've only created a stronger organization instead of freer people, I will have failed." "The worst thing that could happen to this subject is for it to end up in the hands of a militant organization." "The knowledge was free. Keep it so." (I trust I won't run into any "verbal tech"-nazis here =]. I'm paraphrasing. I'm not looking up the references up right now.)

    But he had researched all of the Bridge by 1968. After that things went quite south in Scn IMHO. I think it was because he was trying to create an organization to isolate himself from legal threats. And it did.

    But one thing Ron also said was, "Don't take my word for things. I don't want to hear people claim they believe things just because I said them. If it's true for you, then it's true." (still paraphrazing)

    So, like I said earlier, I'm keeping what I think is valuable and I'm throwing everything else out. And I meant it.

    Basically, IMHO, it is Green on White that is absolutely worthless. I've never seen it work. Unless by "work", someone means to keep people in line.

    This is why I am so happy to have found the FreeZone. We actually function as if we believe that data. It's only true if it's true for you. The heavy control and manipulation that you describe is ABSOLUTELY real. But I don't think it's real because of the real tech (Red on White). I think it's real because of a horribly run organization that fosters the attitude that people should be herded like cattle.

    Also, because of that, the FreeZone is a free market. That means you're going to also find all kinds of ideas out here. There's plenty I disagree with in the FreeZone too. That's kinda like real life though, isn't it? =)

    But people are usually open with what they do and you can pick and choose if you agree with it. For mean, I want 100% standard red on white. Nothing else. And that's exactly what I'm getting. I've been doing it for about a year now ... and I'm still very excited about the fact that it exists! =)
  8. Mojo

    Mojo Silver Meritorious Patron

    Brian, a few posts back VEDA provided a link to an audio of Ron speaking. I am not familiar with red on white volumes? But I just wanted to ask you two questions. #1. Did you listen to the Hubbard speech (linked below) and if not yet, would you be willing to listen to it and share your 'take' on it? #2. What are red on whites?

    Thank you.


  9. TG1

    TG1 Angelic Poster

    Brian, you seem fair-minded.

    And yes, the church sucks.

    And yes, you are getting something worthwhile from your practice of Scientology in the Free Zone.

    Have you read Lawrence Wright's recent book about Scientology and Hubbard? If not, I think you would find it absolutely fascinating. If you have read it, then I'd love to hear what you thought about it.

    Wright reports on some well researched events that bear directly on the things you posted just above here.

    You quoted / paraphrased (doesn't matter to me either) Hubbard as saying, "Don't take my word for things. I don't want to hear people claim they believe things just because I said them."

    You also said, "I'm keeping what I think is valuable and I'm throwing everything else out. And I meant it."

    Both those statements and the emphasis you gave your own statement seem to require that you perform complete and full due diligence on Scientology -- as a subject, philosophy, and practice. In other words, it seems like you'd have to examine Scientology very, very well to tell how valuable it really is. Put another way, you'd have to be willing to be a Doubting Thomas.

    So here's only one of many questions that may have drawn you here: What is it about the subject, philosophy and practice of Scientology (and not just the the Church of Scientology) that has driven so many people away from the subject, the philosophy and the practice?

    Do you have the curiosity, confidence and courage to explore that question?

    If so, I again recommend Wright's book.

  10. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Red on white means red ink on white paper. To a Scientologist, it means "tech." However not all "tech" is red on white. For example, Hubbard's handwritten OT levels (OT 1 - OT 3, and old OT 4 -7) are not red ink on white paper, but are still considered "tech."

    The "red on white volumes" are the "Tech volumes," and are a red colored hardbound series of books containing the non-confidential parts of Scientology auditing tech and "philosophy."

    There are, however, more kinds of tech in Scientology than auditing tech, and there are red on white writings by Hubbard that are not in the Red Volumes.
  11. 2briancox

    2briancox Patron

    I do get the feeling Veda, that you are trying to pigeon hole my experience as "Well ok ... but next you're going to go through this step ... blah blah blah."

    And I think what you need to understand is that, your opinion is based on what you know. And I get a feeling you don't know people associated with Scientology other than those who give up on it completely. I'm not saying giving up on it doesn't happen or that there's anything wrong with the ones that that does happen for. But that's just one circle. There's a whole other circle that, from where I stand, looks like just as many as what you see, that are still staying in contact and are ok with the whole subject of the tech. I just met a bunch over at a New Year's party here in the Washington area that didn't feel like the whole thing was bunk. But just that the Church has gone miserably wrong.

    And so some of them just take a break to decompress. Some of them just keep doing it. I've met plenty that have continued for a VERY LONG time. And some others that start doing a whole new thing.

    So I could sit here and cop an attitude like, "Oh all you people who are on this site are just going through this phase before you are ok with Scientology tech again." And that would be a STUPID thing to say, wouldn't it? I'm NOT saying it! And never would. LOL

    But it would be a very good comparable flip-side statement to what you're saying, wouldn't it? Just because you see people that this happens to people doesn't make it some "normal pattern".
  12. 2briancox

    2briancox Patron

    WOW! That is ... quite a stretch!

    Interesting. I guess I'll just try to assure you ... as my normal MO, one of the most important factors I consider when dealing with people is not letting people die ...

    It's actually something I believe in. Believe it or not.
  13. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Below is from an old post in response to someone presenting a quote from Hubbard about "lightness of organization," etc., from June 1955.


    Here are a few more LRH references (and one Dr. Winter quote). "Lightness of organization," from June 1955, has been inserted into the time line. :)

    "I can make Napoleon look like a punk." L. Ron Hubbard, from his "real goal" 'Excalibur' letter, 1938

    "Men are my slaves." L. Ron Hubbard, from his 'Affirmations', 1946

    "There was a difference between the ideals inherent in the Dianetic hypothesis and the actions of the Foundation in its ostensible efforts to carry out these ideals. The ideals, as I saw them, included non-authoritarianism and a flexibility of approach. The ideals... continued to be given lip-service, but I could see a definite disparity between ideals and actualities." Dr. J.A. Winter, who wrote the Introduction for 'DMSMH' in 1950, from his book, 'A Doctor's Report on Dianetics', 1951

    "No rights of any kind... Dispose of quietly and without sorrow." L. Ron Hubbard, 'Science of Survival', 1951

    "Ruin utterly..." "Always attack..." "Debate engaged upon [that] demeaned and degraded Scientology... SHOULD NEVER BE PERMITTED." [caps in original] L. Ron Hubbard, 'Manual on Dissemination of Material', March 1955

    "Lightness of organization..." June 1955

    "Dianetics and Scientology are self-protecting sciences. If one attacks them one attacks all the know-how of the mind. It caves in the bank. It's gruesome sometimes.

    "At this instance there are men hiding in terror on Earth because they found out what they were attacking. There are men dead because they attacked us - for instance Dr. Joe Winter [wrote Introduction to 'DMSMH', and the book, 'A Doctor's Report on Dianetics' with an Introduction by Fritz Perls]. He simply realized what he did and died. There are men bankrupt because they attacked us - [Don] Purcell, Ridgeway, [publisher of 'DMSMH'] Ceppos." L. Ron Hubbard, 'HCO Manual of Justice', 1959

    "Find or Manufacture enough threat." L. Ron Hubbard, 'Department of Government Affairs', 1960

    "Have you ever had unkind thoughts about L. Ron Hubbard?" L. Ron Hubbard, Security Check, 1961

    "Suppressive acts include public disavowal of Scientology... public statements against Scientology...continued membership in a divergent group... continued adherence to a person or group pronounced suppressive..." L. Ron Hubbard, 'Suppressive Acts, Suppression of Scientology and Scientologists', 1965

    "I am not interested in wog morality... I can make Captain Bligh look like a Sunday School teacher," L. Ron Hubbard, 'Discipline, SPs and Admin', 1969.
  14. 2briancox

    2briancox Patron

    So, the poster of this thread wants to be back-handed? You are quite the cynic aren't you? How do you know I don't mean what I say. You don't even know me.

    That is not some flippant response. I really understand the truth behind it, since disconnecting from the cult. I don't really want to push Scientology on anyone. As I said it my original post, I just want it to be here for people that want it. Period.

    To cast aspersions on me and tell people that my comments are not genuine and that I am just trying to blow people off is pretty snide!

    Look, it's really easy to get all kinds of ideas about people who post on the internet. I am quite sure that when people who disagree on the internet meet each other, they suddenly grant each other a lot more respect as a human being. Because it's hard to really understand by text that you're dealing with a very REAL person.

    So, please, consider that next time you cut down someone's intentions.
  15. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Well, I have never said the whole thing is bunk. In fact, my consistent message is that the whole thing isn't bunk.

    My statement regarding most outside the CofS Scientologists becoming ex-scientologists is true and realistic.

    Has any one heard of an ex-Scientologist becoming, once again, a Scientologist?

    It would be pretty rare.

    What I'm suggesting to you is that, after you complete the lower grades, you take some time off and examine further the subject of Scientology - from a safe distance - and away from eager Bridge sellers, "Loyal Officers," and "Scientology OTs."
  16. TG1

    TG1 Angelic Poster

    Veda, that really was pretty snotty.

  17. 2briancox

    2briancox Patron

    Ron was often a quite vindictive little bastard. I'm ok with that. It's not what I'm evaluating. I'm evaluating the tech. But what you're doing here ... is desperately trying to make me get your view. And I'm pretty sure we both have a clear vision of what your view is. "It's all BS."

    I'm ok with you having that view, Veda. But this whole pushing it on me thing?

    ... *yawn* ...

  18. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    I am delighted to be wrong about that one point.

    I apologize if you were offended.
  19. Panda Termint

    Panda Termint Cabal Of One

    :hysterical: Sorry, the LOL button just didn't cut it! :hysterical:
  20. MissWog

    MissWog Silver Meritorious Patron

    No snottyier (sp?) than saying people on this board are jaded :no:
    Which is total bullshit and completely invalidates first hand accounts and experience with the inherent abuses written in this red & white tech. Just saying' :whistling: