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Ex-member of the CoS- Brian Cox

Discussion in 'New Member Introductions' started by 2briancox, Feb 21, 2013.

  1. degraded being

    degraded being Sponsor

    Well yeah, but help is a touchy subject with a lot of people isn't it? I am not thinking in scientology tech on the subject of help either. Just that it can be taken as overbearing just to tell people that you are helping them, when they have not shown that "help" is what they need. It implies there is something wrong with the way they are, currently.

    Helping, as in providing information they will likely be interested in, is different. I am very grateful for all the help you provide by putting up materials and links.

    I see a good argument, not necessarily hostile, but challenging a persons assertions as a different thing again.

    Am I missing something?
  2. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Yes. :)
  3. When one knows as much about Scientology and the Cult of COS as Veda can afford to be a bit condescending at times! :yes: (Not that it's good for one's soul! :innocent:)

    Last edited: Feb 24, 2013
  4. Welcome Brian, glad you joined us here. :)

    Do take some time to read around the threads, especially the new member introductions. You may find some of your old friends that way! :thumbsup:

    At what stage on the continuum of "being a Scientologist" do you place yourself here? :

    "The Scientological Onion - (Excerpted from the Addendum section of L. Ron Hubbard, Messiah or Madman?, 2nd and 3rd editions. This is the shortened version that appears in Brainwashing Manual Parallels in Scientology)

    Scientology could be described as a "layers of the onion" operation.

    The outermost layer of the "Scientological Onion" is not identifiable with Scientology at all, being composed of front groups that conceal their connection to -and control by - the Scientology organization. Front groups might be said to constitute Layer Zero: a place where the tentacles of Scientology can grope incognito.

    The first layer of the Scientological Onion is meant to be very visible...

    Layer One includes Scientology's pampered clique of celebrities, and various public relations ploys. It reverberates with noble sounding sentiments about creating a better world. Scientology seeks to equate itself, and its founder, with anything broadly viewed as desirable or good. A little further along, this layer would include introductory courses with the stated aim of "knowing oneself" and "being free."

    Here exist the potentially beneficial aspects of the many masked Scientology operation. The tragedy of Scientology is that the "positives" are used as "window dressing" and "bait on the hook," when they should have been the core and foundation. Thus the Scientology organization reeks of hypocrisy.

    Also, at this much publicized layer, L. Ron Hubbard is presented as an engineer, war hero, nuclear physicist, and the "greatest humanitarian of all time," and the author of "22 best sellers with more to come."

    The "first layer" is what Scientology wishes the outside world to know as Scientology. And it is essentially what new converts to the "movement" believe.

    It includes most of what is good in the subject: The dream of peace on Earth, the desire to help, practical wisdom, civilized communication, and some potentially beneficial counseling procedures. The word freedom is used a great deal at this layer, and a heart felt desire for greater personal freedom, and freedom for all Mankind, is not unusual to new recruits to Scientology.

    (Any inconsistencies or contradictions between the publicly stated aims of the movement, and actual practices or facts, become irrelevant as the individual becomes subject to the Dark Side of Scientology. And the deeper one descends into the "onion" the darker it gets.)

    Descending into the "onion" it is necessary to become a Scientologist. This means thinking like a Scientologist. This is the Second Layer where deception eases into "soft" forms of mind-manipulation. Love of Mankind is modified that the awareness that human beings are mere hapless "Wogs"... The desire to help becomes the desire to recruit. The ideal of practical wisdom, based on logic and science, is superseded by the belief in the unfathomable mystery of the "tech." Indeed one is expected to be in a state of awe regarding the "tech," much in the same manner that a peasant woman might regard piece of bone, said to have belonged to a Saint from centuries past.

    The publicly promoted "policy" of honesty is modified by an awareness that deception is OK, as long as it serves to achieve the desired Scientological end. And the ideals of civility and democracy become a joke - just something that "panty-waists" and wimps fixate on.

    One is slowly being "hatted" as a Scientologist.

    (At this point an - unlucky - new Scientologist may be subjected to heavy handed "hard sell" tactics by a sales person or "registrar." Life savings have been lost, inheritances gobbled up, and lines of credit drained, all in a single arduous evening of "hard sell." This is really a premature taste of Layer Four.)

    The Third Layer down is composed of never ending, expensive, highly advertised, but confidential "upper levels." These go on and on - and on. Scientology has been selling the promise of "Total Freedom" since before most of its current membership were born. It remains the ever elusive "dangling carrot."

    Well known individuals who become involved in Scientology - becoming "Scientology celebrities" - do not go deeper into the Scientological Onion than this.

    They are also spared the abuses that "less valuable" beings may suffer at the hands of Scientology sales people, "Sea Org" recruiters, or "ethics" officers...

    At the upper fringes of the next layer down is local "Org staff," and at the bottom of Layer Four can be found "Sea Org" personnel. This layer employs more pervasive and cruder forms of "persuasion" or "mind control." Here is the "slave labor" supplying Rehabilitation Project Force, the Pavlovian "5 Card System," and the grim but repressed awareness that one is mainly a "post" and a "stat," (i.e. statistic.)

    The Fifth layer down includes intimidation of the mass media, use of lawsuits purely for purposes of harassment, and applications of policies and programs, such as those discovered as a result of the FBI search warrants of July 1977. These materials were made available for public view by Federal court order in 1979 and consist of organized applications of the Fair game Law, and related confidential policies and "tech," designed to illegally gain access to private files, infiltrate, harass, lie about, "sue, trick, lie to, or destroy" anyone perceived as an enemy. At this layer also would be secret bank accounts and financial irregularities.

    Other aspects of this layer would include "blackmail," including threats to publicize personal information obtained during "religious confessionals" (auditing sessions); and the inducement of duress of various kinds - including frivolous lawsuits - to obtain promises of "silence," and to obtain "signed retractions" of earlier statements.

    Here also can be found the handful of individuals who constitute the "Scientology hierarchy": the board of directors of the Religious Technology Center, and its chairman David Miscavige or "DM."

    Layer Number Six appears to be the core of the Onion. It is a very temperamental and secret place.

    Here lie the secrets of L. Ron Hubbard: his bad health, bad habits, undistinguished military service, flunked physics and mathematics classes. Here can be found the actual motivations behind, and sources of, Dianetics and Scientology. Here can be found Mary Sue Hubbard, languishing in prison for crimes committed under her husband's direction, while her husband, in hiding, passes the time writing Science Fiction. Here are all the things you shouldn't know about the founder of the "Science of Knowing How to Know."

    L. Ron Hubbard, Messiah or Madman?, 2nd edition:

    Brainwashing Manual Parallels in Scientology: "

    ...and as long as we're quoting Ron:"The only way you can control anybody is to lie to them." L. Ron Hubbard, Technique 88
  5. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    Ron was PR'ing you buddy. Just like he says "what's true for you is what you have observed to be true" (in Personal Integrity), and concurrently creates an organization where it is utterly impossible to practice that data, he also said this PR about the "stronger organization" and a "militant organization", and he was building those the entire time.

    The ONLY reason that the early days seem less oppressive is because Hubbard hadn't yet solidified his empire of Command Intention robots.

    Hubbard says so MANY things that are solely of the nature of PR, and which are the "nice things" that people can easily agree with, desire and get all enthusiastic about. The slick easily-agreeable nonsense above is just more of the same "bait" by Hubbard.

    There is no "bridge" now, there was no "bridge" in 1980, and there was no "bridge" in 1968 - not one that actually has EVER worked to make real Clears and OTs.

    Hubbard "researched" the bridge . . . . :hysterical:

    Geez, the crap that people accept as true and believe.

    This is just more PR and glossy imagery:

    ""Don't take my word for things. I don't want to hear people claim they believe things just because I said them. If it's true for you, then it's true."

    In truth, it was always HUBBARD'S WAY OR THE HIGHWAY. Cripes, Study Tech is an entire exercise in "agree with everything exactly as it is written" or GET FIXED until you do (with Qual or Ethics).

    Well, I sure agree that most of the Green on White is worthless. But, I think you are going to someday realize that you need to throw out a great deal more than you think you do now.

    But, if all people are doing is auditing each other, without all the lunacy of a fake Navy, Hubbard's severe ego, endless PR, endless manipulations and lies, then really, I couldn't care less. To me, 90% of the problem has always been the nutty organization that Hubbard invented.

    The only reason Scientology has any sort of presence in the world at all is NOT because it has any inherent value or widespread following, but ONLY because of the constant Tone 40 demand and push of a ruthless insane tyrannical organization. If it were not for all the machinations of the Sea Org over the past many years, Scientology wouldn't even exist at all. There has never been enough interest in it on its own for it to succeed. That is why Hubbard hard to create an Army of Idiots to constantly, day after day, and year after year, WORK WORK WORK to "get products", spin PR, and lie about everything (both about Hubbard & about Scientology). Scientology could have never continued to exist on a fair and level playing field.
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2013
  6. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    I appreciate you coming to my defense, Sweetness, but it's too late for me. My overts are too great.

    Yes it true that I did apologize for the atrocious act as suggesting that Brian Cox might not be interested in discussing certain topics, and that his saying "Scientology is not for everyone" was an indication, and hint, of that. It was a terrible thing for me to have said.

    I did soon after apologize for that, however, apparently, though, an apology was not enough, and I can see why. My atrocious behavior had begun earlier, and I was first upbraided by Brian C., for having written this post:

    As you can see, I offended the fellow. I should have known better than to state that most people who become outside the CofS Scientologists eventually become ex-Scientologists. Sure it's true, but it was terribly insensitive of me to say it. I also should have known better than to have posted links to such things as David Mayo's article on 'Clear'. How could I have done that?!

    My God, what was I thinking?!

    So, I'll apologize for the above post too.

    Then, perhaps, my apologies will be sufficient, and I hope so.
  7. 2briancox

    2briancox Patron

    I recommend a great book on that subject: "How to Win Friends and Influence People"-Dale Carnegie. You don't really make many friends by taking a guy who you met that says, "I'm interested in a, b, and c." and saying to him "What you really need is to look at X, y and z!"

    There seems to be very little self-awareness demonstrated here on what the effects of "shoulding" all over people is.

    There's this dogmatic, "I know the truth You need!" attitude in here and I get the feeling that very few can actually smell it. It's like there are people that actually think that that can be called help.

    Just so y'all know right now, I won't be joining that cult. Fair enough?

    It is called "live and let live". Learn it.
  8. 2briancox

    2briancox Patron

    Ok... Let me try to explain this again.

    I see the trap of the organization. I see how it uses people. I GET IT! And fine, let's say it's Hubbard. It's his big evil plan to take over the world. I don't care. I'm looking around me here and I'm 100% confident he's not taking over my world. So if that was his plan, he failed.

    I never really got close enough to be one of these people who lived the Church. I only went back to get the good things that I wanted. And whenever I ran into things I knew I didn't want, like "Flag" for example where I found manipulation and control of people's personal lives, I just walked away.

    And the FreeZone is NOT run that way! There's plenty of re-evaluating of everything going on in the FreeZone. And we've taken the tech that works and just used it. Not with any manipulation of people, but with care for others and only wanting them to do better. Things are very different here. We've thrown out much of the absolute garbage that doesn't help anyone and it looks VERY different from what you know as "Scientology". There really is freedom here.

    So when I hear you saying, "NO! Scientology is this manipulation game!", my response is that YES it certainly can be! It can be a REALLY overpowering manipulation on some people. But it doesn't have to be. And to me, the tech never has been and never will be.

    I just won't let it. That's all.
  9. 2briancox

    2briancox Patron

    Thank you for your very gentle introduction. I'll compare myself by my own metrics thank you. =)

    As is done my posts. Good to meetcha.
  10. Purple Rain

    Purple Rain Crusader

    Well, at least he answered you. Every single post I have made has been ignored, from my welcome post saying I was happy for him that he was enjoying his auditing, to putting a lot of myself on the line to answer one of his points about why staff stay in Scientology to my other comment about Hubbard's "decide for yourself" mantra, I have not had one single acknowledgement. I don't know what more an independent Scientologist can expect than what I have offered - real, considered responses to the points raised without putting him down for his position.

    You know what, Brian, I hope you do meet up with more people you knew in your Scientology past, because there doesn't really seem any purpose in my continuing to try and contribute to this thread. I'm done, but I still wish you well.
  11. 2briancox

    2briancox Patron

    Ah, your grace and near flattery will do you very well I suspect. =)

    Only in the interest of accuracy, I must point out that the mutually beneficial nature of this exchange is more one sided. My goal is not to debate or search out new truths on this forum, but rather just to find some old friends, perhaps get reconnected and have a beer. But your respectful tone has put me in the mood to oblige your interest. Well done.

    So I will first give you the short answer, "NO!" I don't think you can quantify human beings and human experience into something called a science.

    But I will also be generous enough to fulfill any lingering interest you may have as to why. And in fact, let me give you more than you bargained for...

    Let me tell you about me.

    I voted for Ross Perot ... twice.

    I have dabbled in the use of the Dvorak keyboard. (And I'm still fairly proficient in it.)

    I don't use Windows computers, nor Macs. I use Linux ... exclusively. And that includes my Eclipse ROM (Android-ish) phone and my Boxee Box.

    ...And I was actually involved in the "Church" of Scientology.

    My point to this list is that I am the sort of fellow that doesn't really just accept what is put in front of me. I question whether something really is true and best. And I am VERY willing to disagree when something has shown itself to me to not be less than what I think it should be. And I don't really care much for how authoritative, recommended or popular something is when deciding whether to disagree.

    I'm sure you can see how a guy like me would be very interested in a subject like Scientology, given the "PR" line of "what is true for you is what is true" and the promise of being able to find my own answers.

    But before that there was my interest in philosophy, psychology, sociology and the humanities. I was looking for understanding of people and true wisdom. I liked psychology because I could see that I and others in my life were broken people. They had pains and struggles. And I really wanted to help.

    I gave up my math and science background in college to pursue an understanding of people for a while. Through my studies, from intro to psych to abnormal psychology, it was very clear what the field included; a bunch of subfields (branches) that were often unrelated and contradictory. I got to a course where my "study" was to pick a problematic situation, pick a subfield and make up a solution to the problem and write about it. No education. No understanding of the underlying laws of this "soft science". Just think up something and write about it.

    Given that and the disgracefully low standard of what constituted "proof" in the field, I realized I wasn't getting anywhere in actually understanding anything. Plus, it was very hard to ignore the fact that many of my professors were people who ... well they weren't the kinds of people that had a large number of friends. They weren't cheerful. I couldn't even call them polite. But I could very easily judge that they were the sorts of people who had the smallest amount of understanding of people. But they did their studies and they made conclusions and got published. I just shook my head. And I did what I did at Flag ... I walked away. I eventually did what I wish I'd have done from the beginning. I became a Mechanical Engineer, where I KNOW when something is true. So I am a man who does appreciate the value of a real science.

    Anyway, after that I found Scientology, yeah, I agreed with much of their anti-psych stand. I was given all the truthy data that they pile on people and I just said, "Yeah, ok. I see your point." I didn't join CCHR. I didn't mortgage the value out of my home to give all of my money to the IAS. I wasn't interested in picking a fight. I just wanted to help myself and others.

    So, over the years I've witnessed several incidents where I've seen people I care about become less whole from the use of psychiatric medications. A sister-in-law who was understandably going through depression because of the loss of a son. She got on some anti-depressant and she never got off of it. She had been suffering a very real pain. And she masked it. No one intervened and sat down with her and said, "What you are experiencing is very understandable. Let's talk about it." No one comforted her and helped her get to a place where she could understand what she had to live for. Years later, when she was talking to me about her son's death, she confessed that for the years of her life since her son's death, she hadn't felt any pain. In fact she hadn't felt anything at all. There were no joys, no wonders, no exciting thrills of enjoying a great movie. But she was afraid to come off the medicines because of the pain. The drugs kept her from really dealing with it. And it also kept her from really having the rest of her life.

    So some "scientist" looked at her situation and said, "You are suffering this diagnosis and studies have shown that this medication will be very effective to treat those symptoms."

    He was judging everything the wrong way. Because the science told him what he should look for. And he should have looked at the person. And her life. Not some fucking lab test or diagnostic criteria.

    She was not suffering from some deficiency of enough medicine in her veins. She was suffering for a very real problem. And life is about dealing with those problems.

    So, Mojo, absolutely not! I do not consider it a science. It's a study. Sure people can study all kinds of things. But I don't think that academia is some high and mighty authority on truth. There's a lot of BS studies going on in those halls. And, IMHO, this is one of them.
  12. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    Hey Brian, welcome to ESMB!


    With regards to what I bolded.....

    So, why would you still call what you do "Scientology"?

    I don't have any problem with what you choose to do with your life. I'm all about the "Live and Let Live" philosophy you mentioned.

    But I do have a problem with you calling what you're doing "Scientology". Number one - it is not Scientology. And even if it is Scientology, the general public will not distinguish between it and other brands of Scientology. They see you promoting Scientology on a public message board and they will not be able to adequately distinguish between it and what each of these two other guys are selling:



    By promoting Scientology you ARE promoting those other brands as well as your own, and imo, you're setting a trap (although unintentionally) that others will fall into, leading to financial and spiritual bankruptcy.

    Besides all that though, if you're all about helping people, why would you use one of the most highly stigmatized brands on the planet? How does that help forward your objectives?
  13. degraded being

    degraded being Sponsor

    Do you think I should read it? I read a book called "Big league Sales Closing Techniques" by Les Dane, as part of my Scientology Registrar Hat. Very very unique for Dr. Hubbard to approve a book by another author to be used by Scientologists. This was not way way back in the early days either; I think they may still be using it. Anyway, it sure was about influencing people. To make that close; close the sale. Get the cash or get it debited from their bank account. "Will that be cash or cheque, or credit card?" "Will you be starting now, or after you have had your coffee?" That technique is called "offer them a choice". I think it's Dale Carnegie without the Dev T of overdoing the friendship thing. After all, reges are trying to secure your eternity; that's a given. Imagine the parish priest saying to the Mother superior: "Now you have to get your stats up. Get the sisters to reg enough confessions to get us into power this week. There is a mission coming from the Vatican and I don't want to be put into lowers. Here is your hat pack. The Pope has written a policy saying all staff selling confessions, and other public services have to check out on 'Big League Sales Closing Techniques'.
    Don't question it. Our salvation depends on it". I respect religion. It's not about religion. It's what people do that counts. Since "Big Leagues Sales Closing Techniques" is part of the holy scriptures of The Church of Scientology, I respect it a lot. I might be a bit off topic...not sure.
    And I guess I am preaching to the converted, so to speak.
  14. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    Not only did he approve the book to be used but the CoS (in Boston) paid for many of its staff to attend a Les Dane seminar back in the 80's. I know because I was one of them, although I was never a reg, thank Xenu!

    I was very excited when I was told I'd be going, as Les Dane was a legend in my mind, being that he was able to develop some technology that even Hubbard himself was unable to improve upon. That had to make him one of the more special beings in the universe. :coolwink:

    My experience at the seminar though was something of a disappointment. I was thoroughly unimpressed with Mr. Dane. There was nothing special about him and he wasn't very good imo at delivering this type of seminar. :grouch:
  15. The_Fixer

    The_Fixer Class Clown

    A lot of what you're saying about the anti psych stance doesn't really make a lot of sense to me I must say.

    Considering that an awful lot of Scientology technology is based on a lot of what is now debunked and outdated psychatric tech. To me, it doesn't make a lot of sense to dismiss new discoveries that highlight previous errors of researching. A bit like using the Wright brothers' theory on building supersonic fighters and dismissing modern engineering theories.

    The basis of the tech research was finished in the 50s - if you could call his *research* actual research. Many people on this board who knew Hubbard and his *research* will tell you that his tech was just pulled out of the air and stolen from other studies as well. All other studies and changes have been in marketing and general control improvements.

    You are right in the sense of people in this field are probably what you consider to be the least suited to helping people. But I find a lot of brilliant people are pretty poor at people skills. A lot of engineers I have met and had the misfortune to work with were a bunch of total assholes too. They were genuinely arrogant and self important. I have met many good ones too. My point is that assholes are in all fields of academia, after they assume a superior and self important attitude.

    A friend of mine was studying mechanical engineering as a mature age student. He told me the biggest problems with the course was the arrogant professors who could not or would not ever think they could be wrong and lecturers who were experienced engineers that had the same attitude. I wonder if this attitude is one of the biggest things taught at University sometimes.
  16. 2briancox

    2briancox Patron

    Wow! I don't know how I missed this. I guess I was busy dodging bullet balls thrown my way for a bit.

    First of all, that is a horrible experience to be put in! Not get any of the gains of auditing ... and yet, with the use of force (emotional, mental ... maybe even physical) be told you were just responsible for your own salvation and the salvation of "all eternity" by lying. If I had experienced what you had, I would very likely go into a mode of throwing out bullshit wholesale.

    Would you say that was a control mechanism to get you to work for someone else's benefit? I'm not auditing you. =) lol

    But, you shouldn't be made to feel that you owe anyone a compromise of your beliefs and mores. I'm truly sorry you experienced that.

    And I'll agree ... some of Hubbard's writings are completely about getting a group of people to do his bidding. It's really sad some of the other stuff he wrote.

    But since being out, I've felt very free to pick and choose what I believe and what I value.

    Personally, I didn't know Ron obviously. It doesn't matter to me who he was. But there is this auditing that I truly value and benefit from. ...when ... done ... right.

    And the Co$ is all about compromising the "doing it right" in favor of filling coffers and holding fundraisers.

    And it really is safe out here if you're ever interested in looking.
  17. 2briancox

    2briancox Patron

    What happened when somebody tried to DO it? Well, probably because Ron was such a controlling SOB he wouldn't allow them have their own idea! Probably because he was a hypocrite. So I definitely agree that he's just as bad as the rest of us. No question! =)

    And what you see in the Co$ is a legacy to the worst possible hypocrisy that Ron ever had. The desire to control people.

    But when I'm auditing in the FreeZone and truly handling things that have really bogged me down, there's no one responding by handing me a Billion year contract. There's no one dragging me to some fundraiser for a new super-building on top of an existing super-building. Hell, I've never even been reg'd to do a damn thing!

    Point being, I'm pretty darn sure those controls aren't getting in the way of MY auditing. I stress that word because I REALLY own the auditing. It's what I want. And as per standard tech, I don't run anything I'm not interested in running.
  18. Claire Swazey

    Claire Swazey Spokeshole, fence sitter

    Greetings to another Washingtonian! (I live in Seattle)

    The more I see, the more I come to the conclusion that CofS members are what in other circles may be called "Cannon fodder". Just cogs in a very big wheel.

    However, I used to think that did not include senior management in the cult. But now, hearing all this stuff about senior Int Mgmt staff being in the hole and being beaten, intimidated and MISSING- well, it seems like it's the rule for everyone but DM.
  19. 2briancox

    2briancox Patron

    That is a very good question! I've been asked it before. And I see the value in dumping the name and calling it something completely different because of the smear of the word caused by the Corporate Scientology world.

    But people in the FreeZone believe they are the only ones really being pure to the word of the Tech. And from how I see it, that is definitely true.

    And the people in the FreeZone are mostly made up of people who've been through the Cult. Seen it was a distorted cult. And they still want what they had been promised.

    Plus it's the only searchable word with which Google will reliably end people up at your website if they don't know what else to call it and they go looking. That's what I did. And that's how I got here. So by that measurement it worked.

    Also, here's a good way to address your question:
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2013
  20. 2briancox

    2briancox Patron


    I couldn't agree with you more! I am in contact with a direct family member of one of those pieces of cannon fodder from Int Mgmt. And, yes, that's exactly what they are. Cheap disposable puppets in the hands of the DeMon. It's really psychotic. It actually doesn't get more evil than that.