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Ex-member of the CoS- Brian Cox

Gadfly

Crusader
I got to be totally honest.

I do go on and on about the dangers and flaws of Scientology.

But, if and when any person takes and uses the auditing (and even some word clearing, and ethics) FAR OUT of the context of the corporate Church of Scientology, I don't give a rat's ass. In fact, I don't see that there is anything harmful about it. And, taking it a bit further, I have the opinion that it can be useful, helpful and positive when used by caring people in a non-oppressive context.

It won't make Clears or OTs, it won't make a world without war or crime, and it probably won't "salvage this sector", but if it makes a person happy, and in his or her own estimation it helps his or her life, then GO FOR IT. Fuck what anybody else says - including over-generalizing critics of all things Hubbard & Scientology. :omg:

Most people are here NOT to "discuss" and "learn" but to express their views. That's fine. That's what I do. And, I do benefit by reading other views - both pro and con.

I get what you are saying 2briancox. You must understand that while there are bright people here who truly do understand the various flaws and traps of Scientology, sometimes in their eagerness to protect others from the truly despicable aspects of Hubbard and Scientology, they allow that correct negativity to overflow where it doesn't really belong.

Trying to get people to understand and agree with you HERE on ESMB is sort of a fool's game, but I myself DO largely agree with you. Pick and choose as you see fit.
 

The_Fixer

Class Clown
I wish you well Brian. Really, I do.

You seem to have found something that suits you and who you are and that's good. I hope it works out for you.

Many people here are just letting you know what they have experienced and the pitfalls that they have found in their own journeys through the whole Scn thing.

I don't think they are trying to invalidate you and your thoughts generally, just voicing their concerns and hopefully help you to not make the same errors that so many of us have done. So we do get, shall we say, a little passionate about the subject. It may all come across as a little confronting, but our intentions are not about an attack on you.

A lot of us here have been down your path and for some it has worked out OK, but for most it all just ended in tears for them with some damage to be sorted. Forgive us for seeing it all as a venture fraught with dangers, many of them too well hidden.

I, for one, won't go near any of it again. I have no wish to dissect and pick out any healthy (?) parts, mainly in case there are (IMO) dormant malignant cells seeded within it. Been caught once, not going to risk being swept up in it all again. It appears to be the opinion of many of us here - but not all. We have a few Freezoners and Independents on this board too.

I don't doubt that you can figure things out, you do sound smart enough.

Best Wishes.
 

2briancox

Patron
I got to be totally honest.

I do go on and on about the dangers and flaws of Scientology.

But, if and when any person takes and uses the auditing (and even some word clearing, and ethics) FAR OUT of the context of the corporate Church of Scientology, I don't give a rat's ass. In fact, I don't see that there is anything harmful about it. And, taking it a bit further, I have the opinion that it can be useful, helpful and positive when used by caring people in a non-oppressive context.

It won't make Clears or OTs, it won't make a world without war or crime, and it probably won't "salvage this sector", but if it makes a person happy, and in his or her own estimation it helps his or her life, then GO FOR IT. Fuck what anybody else says - including over-generalizing critics of all things Hubbard & Scientology. :omg:

Most people are here NOT to "discuss" and "learn" but to express their views. That's fine. That's what I do. And, I do benefit by reading other views - both pro and con.

I get what you are saying 2briancox. You must understand that while there are bright people here who truly do understand the various flaws and traps of Scientology, sometimes in their eagerness to protect others from the truly despicable aspects of Hubbard and Scientology, they allow that correct negativity to overflow where it doesn't really belong.

Trying to get people to understand and agree with you HERE on ESMB is sort of a fool's game, but I myself DO largely agree with you. Pick and choose to your heart's desire.

Whether it's ARC, tech and all of that ... or not ...

I suddenly find you a very likable guy. Thanks for that.

And yeah, I fall for fool's games for periods at times. Obviously! Or I'd never be here. LOL
 

2briancox

Patron
I wish you well Brian. Really, I do. You seem to have found something that suits you and who you are and that's good. I hope it works out for you. Many people here are just letting you know what they have experienced and the pitfalls that they have found in their own journeys through the whole Scn thing. I don't think they are trying to invalidate you and your thoughts generally, just voicing their concerns and hopefully help you to not make the same errors that so many of us have done. So we do get, shall we say, a little passionate about the subject. It may all come across as a little confronting, but our intentions are not about an attack on you. A lot of us here have been down your path and for some it has worked out OK, but for most it all just ended in tears for them with some damage to be sorted. Forgive us for seeing it all as a venture fraught with dangers, many of them too well hidden. I, for one, won't go near any of it again. I have no wish to dissect and pick out any healthy (?) parts, mainly in case there are (IMO) dormant malignant cells seeded within it. Been caught once, not going to risk being swept up in it all again. It appears to be the opinion of many of us here - but not all. We have a few Freezoners and Independents on this board too. I don't doubt that you can figure things out, you do sound smart enough. Best Wishes.
Thanks for your kind words, The_Fixer. And I do wish you well also. No matter whether we agree on anything.
 

MissWog

Silver Meritorious Patron
Pick and choose as you see fit.. But is it a religon? Quest for enlightenment? Or medicine? I still don't see how it can be both! In my effort to understand the FreeZone a bit better I have been reading and youtubing.. I honestly don't feel any better about this group and here is an example of why..

At 3min really freaks me out talking about being as qualified as a medical doctor and then quickly going back to the religous angle. :omg:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrFW8FcWsgA
 

TG1

Angelic Poster
Continuing in this rash of honesty, I’m going to say something I should probably keep it to myself.

Brian, I don't believe for a second (even if you believe it) that you showed up here at ESMB just to reconnect with old friends. You can do that on Facebook easier than here.

I think somewhere in your heart of hearts (whether you admit this to yourself or not) you hoped that over here at ESMB you'd catch a glimpse of something you've been getting ready for a long time to find the courage to look at square in the face.

That's why most Scientologists (whatever they call themselves) arrive here – wanting to engage, to communicate, to exchange views, expand their awareness. Almost everyone who leaves the cult winds up wanting to drop all the scales from their eyes. We get a hankering for it.

TG1
 

Gadfly

Crusader
The bottom line is this. To me, people can think and do whatever they want, as long as they do not hurt anybody, especially while following the dictates of some strict ideology.

The main reason that people dislike Hubbard and Scientology is because of the continual HARM that has been institutionalized into the operation of the Church of Scientology. Whether that be harm to families, to children, to declared ex-members, to critics, or to ones bank account.

Some people have a very hard time making sense of how Hubbard could have first been such an arrogant and sleazy manipulator, second, created an obviously oppressive church organization, and then third, also put together some ideas and practices that can be beneficial and even positive.

Most people demand consistency in their worlds. They don't feel so good if they look out at the world and see contradictions. They want it to be consistent and make sense. The truth is that often people and things are NOT consistent, but the human mind often wants them to be so. I don't require that facts appear consistent for me to "make sense" of things, but many people do.

Michael Jackson was a great singer and dancer, but he was a wreck in his personal life. How can that be?

It can be because reality is often NOT consistent.

I learned a long time ago to live with and observe WHAT IS, as best that I can, even if it is horribly inconsistent.

An old ex-girlfriend would tell me that she really loves, even though she cheated once in awhile. She did (really love me). And, she did cheat. It just didn't seem consistent, and my mind desired the consistency.

Many people here (and elsewhere) want it to all be consistent along the lines of their primary attitude about Hubbard or Scientology. Some don't want to admit or acknowledge any decent or good aspects, and many simply "can't". Their mind requires consistency and foists it upon the world. But reality and the world are often not actually consistent. The believers, who are for Scientology, do the same thing reversely. They often don't want to and can't differentiate out the bad and harmful, because they desire for it to be both "good" and consistent.

I say it is better to live with a little uncertainty and inconsistency, and to see what is actually there, than to demand total consistency in all things. Consistency is often just an illusion of a mind.

And then also, be bright enough to see consistency when it actually exists. The atoms and molecules continue today as they were yesterday. They don't change their behaviors. They are consistent. The same with the general movement of the heavens. The same with a great many things. Consistency is often far less in human affairs, yet many people desire the same degree of consistency that exists in, for example, the migratory patterns of Canadian geese. :confused2:
 

Veda

Sponsor
-snip-

And as per standard tech, I don't run anything I'm not interested in running.

I agree with you that you shouldn't run anything you're not interested in running, but that isn't Standard Tech.

By the way, if you don't not mind saying, where are you are on the Grade Chart these days?
 

Purple Rain

Crusader
Wow! I don't know how I missed this. I guess I was busy dodging bullet balls thrown my way for a bit.

First of all, that is a horrible experience to be put in! Not get any of the gains of auditing ... and yet, with the use of force (emotional, mental ... maybe even physical) be told you were just responsible for your own salvation and the salvation of "all eternity" by lying. If I had experienced what you had, I would very likely go into a mode of throwing out bullshit wholesale.

Would you say that was a control mechanism to get you to work for someone else's benefit? I'm not auditing you. =) lol

But, you shouldn't be made to feel that you owe anyone a compromise of your beliefs and mores. I'm truly sorry you experienced that.

And I'll agree ... some of Hubbard's writings are completely about getting a group of people to do his bidding. It's really sad some of the other stuff he wrote.

But since being out, I've felt very free to pick and choose what I believe and what I value.

Personally, I didn't know Ron obviously. It doesn't matter to me who he was. But there is this auditing that I truly value and benefit from. ...when ... done ... right.

And the Co$ is all about compromising the "doing it right" in favor of filling coffers and holding fundraisers.

And it really is safe out here if you're ever interested in looking. http://freezone-tech.info/

Thanks for answering me, Brian.

I guess for me to think it worked I would have to look at the character of the person for starters at the very least because we're talking about putting my mental health in somebody's hands. That's trust. And I'm fucked up enough already. So whether it's Robbins or Chopra or anybody else - the FIRST thing I would look at is the character of the guru or whatever. But certainly not the only thing because people lie and cover up, and their followers lie for them also. Hubbard to me is the biggest proof that ever lived of its lack of workability. I would have to see some incredible people (products) to even START thinking otherwise. And the people I saw in Scientology, as I said, did not impress me - save a few. And it still seems to me, if the processing itself is so workable, how did it not work in nearly everyone I met there? And how could the founder being a nutter and the totalitarian culture have such an effect on the public getting the processing? Because the auditors I knew were always the best of the best - the nicest and most caring of staff. I don't want to be anything like someone who locked kids in chain lockers. I don't want to support him in any way, shape or form, including raving about his "tech". I am guessing any stuff that was decent probably came from people like David Mayo and all the other people who contributed but were not acknowledged for their contributions. But I am basically a live and let live person and there are people I think highly of like Karen de la Carriere who are independent Scientologists.

The second thing I would look for now is objective evidence, because it might not be everything but it is something - and something that can be evaluated. I can be happy for you doing auditing or happy for anyone else seeking enlightenment and following a path but I cannot trust any of it. The only exercise I use that I find workable was given to me by a counselor at university and is a Mindfulness exercise. But once again, as she said, they're all pretty excited about Mindfulness because studies are showing that it has good results, and that reflects what they are seeing in clinical practice.

At the moment I am just talking to a psychologist. She is safe and caring and whatever approach we take will have an evidence base. I am also looking into Eckhard Tolle as suggested by Panda, an ex here who reached OT VIII. He had wins in Scientology but feels there are much better ways of achieving the same thing. Obviously you and I are in very different places and following very different paths, but I can still be happy for you and hope you find what you are seeking.

I hope you can understand that just being on the cans would freak me out. It's not something I ever want to do again - not a place I want to go.
 

2briancox

Patron
Continuing in this rash of honesty, I’m going to say something I should probably keep it to myself.

Brian, I don't believe for a second (even if you believe it) that you showed up here at ESMB just to reconnect with old friends. You can do that on Facebook easier than here.

I think somewhere in your heart of hearts (whether you admit this to yourself or not) you hoped that over here at ESMB you'd catch a glimpse of something you've been getting ready for a long time to find the courage to look at square in the face.

That's why most Scientologists (whatever they call themselves) arrive here – wanting to engage, to communicate, to exchange views, expand their awareness. Almost everyone who leaves the cult winds up wanting to drop all the scales from their eyes. We get a hankering for it.

TG1


LOL. Yeah that's really good, TG1.

No, Facebook is not always that good for finding old friends. Especially all of the GAT trainees I knew at Flag. I can't remember 90% of their full names. So it's like shooting in the dark trying to find them.

Plus going on there ties me to Scientology career-wise. And I'd rather keep that private.

And yeah, I love to communicate and share ideas. I always have. Got me in trouble with the control cult guys. But I didn't usually mind a little trouble. =)

And yeah, you're evaluating me a bit. But your evaluation isn't completely off base. So I'm cool with it.
 

2briancox

Patron
Looked at 3min. It's not quite as bad as that. Don't be freaked out. :)

Scientology's Class VIII was described as being the Scientology equivalent of a Doctorate Degree or PhD, in Scientology, not as making one qualified as a medical doctor.


Yeah I agree. I listened very closely to the actual words she was using ... she's not saying it is the same as medicine. The only stretch she is making is that the training takes a lot of time ... much like training in other fields.

I suspect there was a "listening expecting what was going to be heard" phenomenon there.
 

2briancox

Patron
I agree with you that you shouldn't run anything you're not interested in running, but that isn't Standard Tech.

By the way, if you don't not mind saying, where are you are on the Grade Chart these days?

Grade 1. I did share that in an earlier post.
 

MissWog

Silver Meritorious Patron
Looked at 3min. It's not quite as bad as that. Don't be freaked out. :)

Scientology's Class VIII was described as being the Scientology equivalent of a Doctorate Degree or PhD, in Scientology, not as making one qualified as a medical doctor.
Sorry Veda.. This woman is saying it just like you have to do in any college of medicine because you are responsible for people's lives. I keep hearing this over and over again.. You may know what they are saying but that is NOT what she and these FreeZone centers with their purifs and drug rehabs are doing. I call bullshit.. Over inflating their credentials!
Compare it to getting your Phd in Theology if that is the case.. This is sneaky wanna be better than they are. You wanna be a doctor? Go to med school and stop guessing how hard med school is. They do not know! Hubbard wrote this.. HUBBARD! A man who knew what about medicine?
Respectfully, it is the comparison that I take issue with. I see it is calculated.
they could pick ANY higher education but they choose medicine. Not an MBA, Not a JD..they pick MD. All higher education has internships.. They pick medicine for a reason.

Makes me wonder how many people have died at these centers in the FreeZone that offer Drug Rehab too. It's the same program as Narconon from what I see.

Sorry to be a bitch about this..but it scares me because people die.

Are they sticking 6yr old children in Saunas too??
 
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2briancox

Patron
Thanks for answering me, Brian.

I guess for me to think it worked I would have to look at the character of the person for starters at the very least because we're talking about putting my mental health in somebody's hands. That's trust. And I'm fucked up enough already. So whether it's Robbins or Chopra or anybody else - the FIRST thing I would look at is the character of the guru or whatever. But certainly not the only thing because people lie and cover up, and their followers lie for them also. Hubbard to me is the biggest proof that ever lived of its lack of workability. I would have to see some incredible people (products) to even START thinking otherwise. And the people I saw in Scientology, as I said, did not impress me - save a few. And it still seems to me, if the processing itself is so workable, how did it not work in nearly everyone I met there? And how could the founder being a nutter and the totalitarian culture have such an effect on the public getting the processing? Because the auditors I knew were always the best of the best - the nicest and most caring of staff. I don't want to be anything like someone who locked kids in chain lockers. I don't want to support him in any way, shape or form, including raving about his "tech". I am guessing any stuff that was decent probably came from people like David Mayo and all the other people who contributed but were not acknowledged for their contributions. But I am basically a live and let live person and there are people I think highly of like Karen de la Carriere who are independent Scientologists.

The second thing I would look for now is objective evidence, because it might not be everything but it is something - and something that can be evaluated. I can be happy for you doing auditing or happy for anyone else seeking enlightenment and following a path but I cannot trust any of it. The only exercise I use that I find workable was given to me by a counselor at university and is a Mindfulness exercise. But once again, as she said, they're all pretty excited about Mindfulness because studies are showing that it has good results, and that reflects what they are seeing in clinical practice.

At the moment I am just talking to a psychologist. She is safe and caring and whatever approach we take will have an evidence base. I am also looking into Eckhard Tolle as suggested by Panda, an ex here who reached OT VIII. He had wins in Scientology but feels there are much better ways of achieving the same thing. Obviously you and I are in very different places and following very different paths, but I can still be happy for you and hope you find what you are seeking.

I hope you can understand that just being on the cans would freak me out. It's not something I ever want to do again - not a place I want to go.

Yeah. I think you're on a good road, Purple. It sounds like you're being careful. Given what you've been through, yeah! I would too. Best wishes.
 

2briancox

Patron
Sorry Veda.. This delusional woman is saying it just like you have to do in any college of medicine because you are responsible for people's lives. I keep hearing this over and over again.. You may know what they are saying but that is NOT what she and these FreeZone centers with their purifs and drug rehabs are doing. I call bullshit.. Over inflating their credentials!
Compare it to getting your Phd in Theology if that is the case.. This is sneaky wanna be better than they are. You wanna be a doctor? Go to med school and stop guessing how hard med school is. They do not know! Hubbard wrote this.. HUBBARD! A man who knew what about medicine?
Respectfully, it is the comparison that I take issue with. I see it is calculated.
they could pick ANY higher education but they choose medicine. Not an MBA, Not a JD..they pick MD. All higher education has internships.. They pick medicine for a reason.

Makes me wonder how many people have died at these centers in the FreeZone that offer Drug Rehab too. It's the same program as Narconon from what I see.

Sorry to be a bitch about this..but it scares me because people die.

Notice she said people's lives? Not their bodies.

The history of religious counselors being responsible for the spiritual well being of their flock has a REALLY long history. Much longer than the history of the invention of Psychology. Doctors, being responsible for a person's body, are also responsible for a person's life. Naturally.

But that does not mean that they are exclusively responsible for a person's life.

There is something about the use of the word Drug Rehab in the Freezone that you misunderstand. It's not about getting a person to handle drug addiction that is going on in present time. But there is a very safe (ie. when done right under the care of a doctor, as is required) treatment program that people go through in Scientology to help sweat out drugs they had done previously that are stopping current spiritual gain. I've done it. And it was very beneficial. I never recall feeling so good physically as I did after that.

Now in the Cult...that treatment is WAAAY over given. Anyone who once smoked pot is usually forced to buy it. But that's their MO.

Out here...it's only done when it is REALLY a problem. And NOT during ongoing drug use or immediately after stopping drug use.
 

MissWog

Silver Meritorious Patron
Yeah I agree. I listened very closely to the actual words she was using ... she's not saying it is the same as medicine. The only stretch she is making is that the training takes a lot of time ... much like training in other fields.

I suspect there was a "listening expecting what was going to be heard" phenomenon there.
You can suspect what ever you want but she could have picked Architecture, Library Services, Jourlnalism, Law, Engineering or Xenu forbid the one that would at least relate to religon, Theology..but she said Medicine!

For some crazy reason Library Services doesn't have the same ring to it as comparing yourself to being as educated as a doctor. But it is an advanced degree with an internship!
Won't get as many people in her sauna.
 

MissWog

Silver Meritorious Patron
Notice she said people's lives? Not their bodies.
.
She is the one who compared herself to a doctor saving people's lives.. Not me! Just like Tom. You go riding past an accident and you know you are the only person who can help. It's sick.

3:27... Medicine people's lives are in your hands. What the fuck! Spin it all you want.
Her words not mine.
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
Sorry Veda.. This delusional woman is saying it just like you have to do in any college of medicine because you are responsible for people's lives. I keep hearing this over and over again.. You may know what they are saying but that is NOT what she and these FreeZone centers with their purifs and drug rehabs are doing. I call bullshit.. Over inflating their credentials!
Compare it to getting your Phd in Theology if that is the case.. This is sneaky wanna be better than they are. You wanna be a doctor? Go to med school and stop guessing how hard med school is. They do not know! Hubbard wrote this.. HUBBARD! A man who knew what about medicine?
Respectfully, it is the comparison that I take issue with. I see it is calculated.
they could pick ANY higher education but they choose medicine. Not an MBA, Not a JD..they pick MD. All higher education has internships.. They pick medicine for a reason.

Makes me wonder how many people have died at these centers in the FreeZone that offer Drug Rehab too. It's the same program as Narconon from what I see.

Sorry to be a bitch about this..but it scares me because people die.

Are they sticking 6yr old children in Saunas too??

Are you referring to Aida as a delusional woman? If so...

she IS a contributor here.

Please read and understand the following: Announcement of Cessation of Hostilities - a Truce and Moratorium on Personal Attacks.
 
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