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How Dangerous is New OTVII (Solo NOTs)

Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by mate, Jan 27, 2010.

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  1. nw2394

    nw2394 Silver Meritorious Patron

    Ah well, that is more loosely worded.

    I am simply of the opinion that sometimes - sometimes - a C/S needs to be able to say - "you gotta take a look at this". Sometimes things can be sufficiently occluded that one needs one's nose rubbed in it a bit.

    Its kinda like not checking for interest on Dn drug items. It could be said that OT2 is primarily there as a cluster buster and you're not being asked whether you were interested in doing the level in the first place - you just get told that is your next step. I can certainly warm to the idea that some (many perhaps) are told to do this when it wasn't really what they needed - but I really - and I mean really - do not think that merely assessing for "programmed incident" will always cut it - it will do a lot of the time - but I do not think it will get all of it all of the time. I don't think it would have been adequate for me anyway.

  2. RogerB

    RogerB Crusader

    Yes, that's fair comment, Mate. Not to be argued with, but respected as it is from an old pro.

    I can only say that up till I got a look at an alternative way of addressing and progressing an individual's case, I viewed it exactly as you do :yes:

    My sweet Virginia was never in Scn . . . I introduced her to Kn as a total newbie, and coached and case advised her all the way. She's been to the old Dallas Center and the ranch many times on courses, and co-processed with students (and another business person client I twinned her up with in her early days for objectives) . . . but other than that, I coached her to solo everything.

    I have given her one or two sessions to help her handle a tricky thing or two or to do one corrective action for her. This over a period of 12 years.

    It has been interesting for me to be closely watching her progress . . . and that with a very keen eye to be sure things go right with nothing missed or avoided. (that's where the coaching bit comes in.)

    She is aware that the OT Levels exist, and generally the nature of their content. It is an issue of no interest and no reaction on her part, not avoidance, but simply something she does not have to deal with, it seems (so far . . . and I suspect probably not at all).

    It's time I revealed a little truth I've not revealed on ESMB. It's a true story to do with Virginia and a client who now is well advanced in Kn (he's an MD Specialist who also teaches at a leading teaching hospital).

    It's a story about an example and the level of abilities being recovered by the Kn way of handling case.

    It was the day of 9/11. The day NYC lost its twin towers to the terrorist takeover of the two jetliners.

    I had a doctor’s appointment that day. I was seeing about my old injured spine, and what to do about it.

    I was aware that the first plane had hit the towers as I left my office to keep my doctor appointment. More than that was not known. I thought from the TV long distance shot that some idiot private pilot had flown into the building. I was forgetting how enormous those buildings were . . . . they were over 100 yards long on each side of the square that was their base shape.

    By the time I came out of the hospital after the appointment, the whole city was on alert: traffic frozen, the hospital as active as a disturbed beehive, folks listening to reports on strangers’ car radios or crowding shops to get what was on TV.

    I looked south about 8 miles from where I’d come out of the hospital, and all I saw was an enormous white cloud hanging over the bottom of Manhattan occluding the skyscrapers there.

    When I got back to my office I had messages from Virginia. She had witnessed the second plane hit live. After the first plan hit, she and her co-workers up at Columbia University had a clear view down the Hudson River to the tip of Manhattan, and watched the whole parade unfold live.

    The first question she had of me, even before ascertaining how we were going to get home that evening with all the city’s transportation shut down, was what could we do for the people who were involved/killed in the catastrophe.

    Frankly, I hadn’t given that much, if any, thought. I had been more interested in my own affairs and of keeping my case unperturbed and not stirred up. There was a lot of upset going on that day among my acquaintances.

    My instant reaction, after Virginia asked me what we could do for the victims was to say, “They’ll be in shock. Make contact with them and run a shock handling for each of them.”

    My client the doctor was also in touch (no OT levels, just Kn) and I gave him the info given to Virginia,

    And the three of us began contacting the victims, the spiritual Beings who had been killed in the 9/11 event.

    At a spiritual level, it’s a simple R/D to do a shock handle. Contact, get into comm., check if in a shock, indicate if so, ask as to whether the shock caused them to disperse or implode, ack the answer, ask if attention is stuck on anything—inspection generally blows it, if not have them locate where it is and that unfixes them, then ask “what were your dreams and aspirations prior to the shock?” And have them look at continuing on to pursue that if they choose. (Most had dreams and aspirations related to their families.)

    Virginia, who’s only had Kn and no Scn, but is familiar with spiritual teammates performed wonderfully, as did my doctor client/friend.

    She processed more than several dozen Beings over the next day or two. One of the shocks she had while doing this was to discover when processing one of the individuals who had jumped from something like ninety stories up to avoid being slowly roasted to death that, a) how utterly painful it was when the individual hit the street below the building and, b) the guy bounced!

    It is also interesting to note that she developed a temperature of 102 degrees while processing these folks (some of whom burned to death). I developed a diarrhea and vomiting fit while dealing with the traffic, and my doctor friend found himself feeling like he was choking on dust. In his case he did process an individual who suffocated on/under dust.

    I let the Kn fraternity at the time know about this, and many others also chipped in to process spirit to spirit the victims.

    But I tell you this in order to render an example of the abilities that are being recovered by the folks applying the tech in the way we do in Kn.

    We are recovering our abilities and powers in the way all scientologists I know had always hoped to.

    PS: and this is another issue of why S/NOTs is a bum steer. Senior to the physical universe, the only game left in town is a game with other spiritual Beings . . . . so we may as well get into some practice of it now. :yes:

  3. FoTi

    FoTi Crusader

    Thanks for this post.
  4. thetagal

    thetagal Patron

    Reply re: NOTs

    Hello. It a pleasure to meet someone who has had your experience with NOTs.

    I'm "thetagal" for the purpose of this board. Founding Scientologist 1951, and now my husband and I offer the entire bridge.

    I'm shocked too, that any minimum amount of time for auditing would be mandatory. There is nothing in the materials about that.

    This reply might cover some of your other post, too. I think probably we need to look at the definition of body thetans in a new unit of time. If we misidentity body thetans (which are additives to the body/thetan and not necessary for the survival of the body or body part) with a cell or life generated by a group of cells necessary to the whole of the organism, certainly that could cause difficulties. Running out cells was not the intention of NOTs. We aren't supposed to run out the body itself.

    However, I'm opting for another possible solution to too many folks getting cancer. (Although please note even on those who don't get auditing, cancer is the second leader of cause of death in the US) Consider the possibility of overrun or unflat Purifs.
    It is Purif that runs the radiation out of the body among other things. Good old niacin restimulating so it will run out on a cellular basis (the radiation of course, not the cells). It turns on the engram somatics of past radiations. If it is run properly and all that turns on turns off, not a problem.

    I've noticed in the past AO was adamant that everyone had a Purif whether they needed it or not. The purpose of the purif is so that the pc will run well in auditing. It didn't come out until the 70's. I refused the Purif as I was already running well and was original OT VI at the time. I got back from AO that unless I did the purif I couldn't have any more auditing. Odd c/sing. No D of P after I still said "no."

    I also did 14 years of solo NOTs outside of the COS, and that ended over 10 years ago. No cancer.

    NOTs was originally done by David Mayo (badly devaluated by the RTC) and the purpose was to recover those pcs who had been run on Dianetics after NOTs, to clean up any misidentification of cases. I don't think it was ever intended to be endless.

    I'm sorry that you had to work under the RTC's way of doing tech.

    If you want to continue this I would rather not do more on this board. You may write me at if you would like to. Thetagal.
  5. CarmeloOrchards

    CarmeloOrchards Crusader

    If your husband wasn't so busy watching the Mariners and drinking coffee, you'd have five centers.
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2010
  6. JBTrendy

    JBTrendy Patron with Honors

    Hi Vinaire

    I just red quite a lot of your posts on this thread and thought I could say something that could help sort things out.

    It has to see with your approach to things. Please don't take offence and take a look at this. Well, this is a via.

    To take a look at things in order to percieve them is a via.

    You don't need to look in order to know.

    In fact if you look at something you seperate from it by the simple fact of having to do something in order to percieve it. Thus you know about it but in order to know you just have to be the thing or become that thing. There's no distance involved there just the simple and plain consideration, total ARC.

    The whole thing Lord Buddha was after and reached as a modus operendi that in fact LRH also achieved that he described as the state of clear was the ability to get over the cause and effect proposition. Concieve mind essence is another way to state it.

    I saw you mentioned the Factors earlier on and that is all they are about in the first place. Before the bigining there is a cause....

    That's the stand point from which you have to consider things in order to be exterior to the cause and effect mechanism that is the trap.

    That doesn't mean that you don't get into cause and effect as otherwise there wouldn't be life in which to participate and thus no game. That is by the way what Nirvana is all about and is only a nothingness so of absolute no value as far as living is concerned. The point is that one hasn't to be trapped in having to be at cause or effect in order to consider the existence oneself.

    I think this is in the Phoenix lectures that LRH covers this the most. Not sure though. Don't want to misslead you.

    Knowing is a no game condition though. Meaning that there is nothing there to look at. You just know and that's all there is to it and that is what LRH calls the static. And that's nothing untill it's causing something and therefore assumes a beingness in order to exist and cause an effect and enter the game called Life. Being OT or cause over life means the individual can operate reach and withdraw at will with the cause and effect mechanism necessarily involved with the condition of being alive.

    Does it clarify things? :whistling:
  7. KnightVision

    KnightVision Gold Meritorious Patron


    Man.... just look at the figures. How many Scn's are there? Really?

    And please offer us up some historical evidence that the Buddah fairgamed his detractors????

    Or as you say, it's not necessary to look to really know?:duh:

  8. Gottabrain

    Gottabrain Guest


    There some really loony stuff on this thread.

    Even when I was in AOLA, we who were OT staff thought the public scientologists who were helping the world by "solo auditing the thetans" were way out there in theety weety land.

    I started reading this and I'm going - is this a bloody joke?

    L Ron's "clear" state had nothing to do with Buddhism at all. None of the Buddhist paths have a thing to do with the "Bridge to Total Freedom". In fact, the ONLY similarity between the two is both make a reference to past lives.

    Even the red hair bit and "from the west" are not anywhere in the original Vedic scriptures.

    These people are not even reading the facts available to them or just not capable of taking it in.

    Sad. Very sad.
  9. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    I am not sure what you are trying to clarify.

  10. nexus100

    nexus100 Gold Meritorious Patron

    If one intends to know it means one doesn't. If you know all immediately you are God and you aren't in this place no matter how you operate. We are all "something". Hubbard is, as usual, inaccurate and described the universe in unworkable terms so we would need his advice how to deal with his creation. Create yourself and all "no games conditions" solve. But better not to create them at all.
  11. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    Solution to Games Conditions

    The moment one identifies with a consideration, such as, "TO BE", one immediately has an IDENTITY. The moment one has an identity, one is in a games condition.

    It is possible to play with all kind of considerations without getting into a games condition, if on identification is made with any of them.

    Here is a simple solution from Bhagavad Gita to what Knowledgism is trying to handle.

    Here is my translation and commentry on Chapter II of Bhagvad Gita.

  12. Rmack

    Rmack Van Allen Belt Sunbather

    Have you seen those '3D' posters that look like a Pollock painting until you unconverge your eyes?
  13. Whitedove

    Whitedove Patron Meritorious

    For a long time it was right in front of my nose and I didnt see it or didnt want to truly see it. Finally, I looked and it is so simple its almost ridiculous but when someone doesnt want to see, not much can be done :confused2:

    First, L Ron Hubbard Jr gave an interview which I think most of you know about. I remember this part had really impinged on me than

    So, I came to see clearly that Scientology is evil. Its core is evil but obviously WELL hidden. You got to pay thousands and thousands of dollars to know that. But see, once you are there, you are already trapped in something that is evil that you werent aware of.

    He said that Jesus didnt exist yet he said that he is the Antichrist mentioned in the bible. He said Jesus didnt exist yet he said he was a pedophile.

    I am not going to dwell on Scientology. Its not worth it. I believe in good. Scientology is NOT good. I believe in compassion and caring. Scientology doesnt believe in compassion and caring (its low tone. Plus what are you doing helping those people that are in trouble. After all, they pulled it in! THEIR problem). See how it dehumanize you?

    And that is just a little part of what I came to understand about Scientology.

    So I will never ever approach it again. Even independent Scientologists or freezoner because that is what Scientology truly is. Evil to its core but so well crafted.

    Even the best intentioned person cant in the end get something good out of this.

    L Ron Hubbard Jr. said Scientology was a 'soul cracker'. I totally agree with him. I know when I was still in but near the end I said a few times I felt like they hurt my soul. Not my mind only. But my soul. That is how I felt truly.

    I wasnt that wrong eh?
  14. RogerB

    RogerB Crusader

    Missed Third Party Source

    I have been helping a person via PM's recently; giving some coaching cum case advice to handle some scenarios.

    This post below relates to my post #291 on this thread.

    I thought it might be of interest to some of you.

    This is the PM I sent this morning:
    Hope the info in it is of use to those interested.

  15. Hubbardianen

    Hubbardianen Patron

    An interesting calculation gives that 76 planets times 178 billion people = 13 528 billion BT's.

    If we average 6,8 billion people right now on earth that would mean 13 528 / 6,8 = 1 989 BT's per person.

    So each person could perhaps in total blow about 1500-2000 BT's depending on if they're attached to the soul or the body or floating around free etc.
  16. nexus100

    nexus100 Gold Meritorious Patron

    The idea of the OT levels and all of Scientology is that something "needs fixing".

    This is factually incorrect. Nothing is wrong. Having the idea that you have a "case" and need to do something about it or calamity will ensue is inaccurate.

    You don't have to do anything.

    What you can want is to understand what is going on. This means seeing something you are not presently seeing. Understanding is simply getting perspective on your present viewpoint. You see outside and know why you are in the position you are in. This perspective is entirely your own and up to you.

    This goes all the way out and through "OT" levels, which are fantasy and don't exist unless you decide you want to believe in them.

    All of this is apparent when you look outside the Scientology structure. Those who won't look outside don't have perspective and stay inside.

    You don't have to. Do nothing but have fun and you are golden. If you want to know more, the structure of this place and how it works is laid out in any number of books, philosophies, even a few applied counseling operations, my experience.

    Just not in Scientology, nor so far as I can tell by observing statements of practitioners, any of the attached Hubbard tech folk. It is a bad idea to create a shell to live inside of if you want to see outside. This should be obvious, oui? So best wishes to all in all things!
  17. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    A lot of people think that the OT 8 you cite is a hoax, and I share that view. It likely was written by Steve Fishman. You can make a strong case for much of your argument without the Fishman OT 8.

    If you're interested, do a ESMB search on Fishman and it will eventually turn up a thread on the subject of this OT 8.
  18. FrankBooth

    FrankBooth Patron with Honors

    Oh no! You mean some people think that it's one person's made up bullshit as opposed to another guy's made up bullshit? Oh the horror.....

    I would have more to say, but I've got a bridge I'm looking to sell....
  19. RogerB

    RogerB Crusader

    Roger’s Journal Feb. 8, 2012

    My problem with posting this above was where to put it to be most help to folks. I wanted it to be easily found or collided with by newbies on their way out . . . so I thought to post it on the thread started by Mate here.

    At the following link is is a wrote up to do with the effects of NOTs and New OT VII, and what I recently did to correct the screw-ups that are inherent in that tech.

    But decided to cross-link the threads instead.

    So for those who want to learn more about the extreme dangers of NOTs and what can be done to fix the mess, go here:

  20. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader