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How long does it take to feel "normal" again after attesting to clear or OT?

Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by renegade, Apr 6, 2019.

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  1. renegade

    renegade Silver Meritorious Patron

    Once upon a time a scn did a DCSI. Time passed by and being uncertain about the state of clear, did the new Clear check.

    Years went by, still uncertain, this person does the new CCRD at an upper org. Blown out by many wins, they joined staff. This was it, finally!

    Time went by, and this person was again uncertain about the state of clear and not doing very well in life.

    This happened with OTs as well. Returning from recent auditing all shinny and bright, all sorts of really great things happening in their lives and then...crash and burn.

    How long does this "High" last? Or has anyone maintained the "High" of attesting to clear or OT?
  2. lotus

    lotus stubborn rebel sheep!

    Till they " recreate a case" will answer $cientology when people leave the "glee" state and get down to earth....
  3. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

    My hypothesis has been:

    Scientology auditing does not erase "charge" in the mind/brain.
    Scientology auditing creates temporary changes in brain neurotransmitters (e.g. dopamine would be one).
    How long does it last? I guess it could be only minutes or maybe many months.

    That's my 2 cents comment on this, for whatever it is worth.
  4. renegade

    renegade Silver Meritorious Patron

    How does the auditing on NED lead a person to spit out the clear cog? It would seem like a last resort comment, like "I give up, I made all of this up."

    First Dianetics indoctrinates and convinces you that you have a reactive mind not under your own control. Then it addresses all these incidents. After a while you say you mocked it all up?
  5. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    How long does it take to feel "normal" again after attesting to clear or OT?

    This is a complex question, quite apart from the obvious variation individual to individual. I see two main parts to it. One is the "simple" aspect of the temporary high one can get after being "blown out" -- whatever the mechanics of that are -- that will dissipate after a while (minutes, hours, days, months even). The other is the life changes one went through to get there, including money, relationships, whatever, which may take a week or never to recover from. Of course, there may be no high. My "win" on attesting to New OT IV after 5 hours auditing over maybe 15 years was "Thank God that's over at last."

    With regard to the first one, I find/found it useful to have a self-assessment chart one can use after a PaulsRobot session. It's a 1-10 scale, based not so much on how good one feels but on one's ability to address further "charge" in session. Any auditor should be familiar with the concept of a pc being too "blown out" to continue that session past a good win.


    These SUDS (Subjective Units of Distress/Disturbance Scale) [copied from Wikipedia] and SUSHI (Subjective Units of Session Harmony and Insight) [new] scales are described in my article at

    Last edited: Apr 6, 2019
  6. The_Fixer

    The_Fixer Class Clown

    Interesting, Paul. I only ever had one session of auditing and didn't quite complete my HQS course back in 78.

    So I never really saw or experienced what people got from it all.

    Thanks for the insights.
    Dulloldfart likes this.
  7. pineapple

    pineapple Silver Meritorious Patron

    It took me about 2 weeks to "come down" after attesting to Dn Clear in 1979. The buzz wore off after 2 weeks, but I still felt the clear cog was valuable.

    Apparently "I'm mocking up my own reactive mind" did not mean the same thing to everyone. To some people, the clear cog apparently meant, "I'm making up what I'm running," i.e., "I'm running dub-in." That wasn't what it meant to me.

    To me it meant, "I made the decision to make recordings of events and to be affected by the force and mass in them, and now that I've realized I'm doing this, I can stop." And for a while it actually seemed like I had stopped, for about as long as the buzz lasted.
  8. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

    deleted (wrong thread, oops!)
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2019
  9. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

    oops wrong thread - deleted
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2019
  10. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

    . oops wrong thread - deleted
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2019
  11. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

    Oh damn, i posted SJW/Trump stuff on this thread by mistake.

    Oh well, maybe the Trump Thread already has enough of my posts, let's share the wealth, like socialism.

    Sorry for derailing this thread folk (just deleted those posts and they are now over on the Trump thread)
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2019
  12. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

    IMO, a PC that has that particular "Clear cognition" has realized that they were "making it up".

    There are different parts of the brain that interact and react. (not Hubbard's definition of "reactive mind".)
    Sometimes the prefrontal cortex (conscious sense of self) will makeup false memories in response to influences from other part(s) of the brain. And using an e-meter can speedup this process.

    Another point:
    But, as long as the PC has "cog, VGIs, F/N" and has an F/N at the examiner in Qual then "whatever is true for you is true for you".
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2019
  13. renegade

    renegade Silver Meritorious Patron

    So, in essence you got rid of the "tape recorder mechanism" from the clear cog? Why would that not last if the recorder is so called gone?

    Being brand new, I asked an Ot and a clear, "Why do you do contact assists if you can no longer add anything into your reactive mind because you don't have one?" My thought being a clear/OT cannot go unclear from some bump or bruise, can they? If so, what's the use of spending all that money and effort? I can't remember what their answers were to this question.
    Operating DB likes this.
  14. Hatshepsut

    Hatshepsut Crusader

    To me, it was a rehab of a past track release practicing Zen or somesuch. I realized the valence or game I had my head up inside, was a self perpetuating viewpoint, held in place by the continuous ANTI (that I was putting there myself). Both energies were generalized, like in assessing Help by dynamics on Level I. I just stopped holding up the yin that was hanging up my yang. The one drops off and the other falls off and floats away. (May be a difference between releasing to float 'away' and nixing an intention that will recreate that game again.

    I think it must mean different things to different people. I began to see ball-like masses as minds afloat in my space. I either had affinity for them or not. Was self identified 'AS' being them or not. I'd hundreds of memories where I just seemed to be LOOKING from stored akasha, and not from personal experience. Dianetic auditing was harmful to the extent it got me into insidious agreement that I WAS each of the viewpoints that I viewed from. It would be nice to just run earlier similar memories contacted without any assertion you lived an entire life cycle AS that consciousness.

    It's the games that trap consciousness, and it's the unsolvable problems keeping those games constantly going.... and trapping. In Eastern practices and Gnostic treatises, one is always warned to pay attention to what your attention is DOING. But how do we knock it off when we are often held in a fixed orbit by someone else's game energies. The Archons were often referred to as the planets, and they kept consciousness in rotating in a constant repeating orbit. No one could leave the planet or solar system without running into conflict with pieces you carried.

    Say a game holds the character cache of a "Looney Tunes" cartoon. They've inter engaging goals. A person who is unconsciously wearing this mind to the point of total identification is not aware of the different parts. (Maybe these segments are AI or even 'alive') created as Roadrunner, Wiley Coyote, and Elmer Fudd. It's all clustered into the valence. When a role is ignited, it will attract into it's orbit, or project upon someone....a matching stance.

    According to Kabbalists, nature will provide the environment necessary to evolve the organism that has been decided upon. ( to help it finish it's evolution to completeness.) Cycles hurt when one is not aware they are being driven along by the composite drivers of others too. Our games are interconnected. Maybe that's why some go Clear release on O/Ws, as this is where we 'dance', trying to WIN and trap our opposition into a losing role .

    I had often noticed that after attesting to Clear and OT, I'd see individuals complaining about being roped into other's games and resenting it. I know, personally, when my head's up inside my own fixed game, I am not as often corralled by others to play parts in theirs. It's like we have an awareness of when someone has 'free' non-imprinted, blank slate, spirit quanta available. You're not worth the bother otherwise as your existing character role is carved in granite.

    Just my thoughts.
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2019
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  15. renegade

    renegade Silver Meritorious Patron

    Funny you say this.

    I remember a session I had where I had a cog VGIs, F/N and was finally let out of session. I was in disbelief of what was run, but "Oh well, what do I know, the emeter doesn't lie, right per lrh?"

    A few days later, I recall what I said in session was from some movie I saw! This planted seeds of doubt on good days and on very bad brainwashed, scientological-introverted days, "The tech doesn't work on me."
    programmer_guy and Operating DB like this.
  16. renegade

    renegade Silver Meritorious Patron

    I'm a newbie studying the spiritual realm, and am trying VERY HARD to understand your post fully. Your conscience level maybe way above my understanding at this time.

    So, the scn rehab part, is from possibly a past life reaching of Enlightenment from a Buddhist or other practice? That would be pretty awesome, if you ask me! And in that case, it lends a different perspective and heck, more power to those who did rehabilitate that state and KEPT it.

    If Resistance to anything is dropped, opposing things will melt away as a consequence. It is like letting go. It turns into a neutral Non-Issue.

    So, it is vital to KNOW what you run as your OWN case compared to the written Akashic records or you will be F'ed up? Even OTs get pulled into what is not their own case?

    How is it that they cannot recognized this problem being so able after all the auditing and special training they received?

    Did I get that right? If not, please elaborate.

    PS, long time no see.
  17. Hatshepsut

    Hatshepsut Crusader

    I think it possible that many things in nature 'grow' a mind. And this is made of impressionable spirit. It 'receives' effects and computes on it. We're talking an animal mind of sorts, intended to assist evolution.

    Gnostics and Alchemists had concepts for The WORD, First Thought, Impregnated with image, Prima Materia, First Matter etc. The inference is that some material, or living fire, was emanated initially, pure and without label as 'this' or 'that'. Maybe it's nature is to take on 'impressions' or just the WILL of the individual who put it into the World.

    In Scientology the attention was placed on being Cause or being the Postulator or Intender. Not so much on that aspect of Consciousness RECEIVING one's postulate, or a CAUSER getting its ideas mirrored. There may be a 'feminine' aspect intrisic with the emanating or postulating male.
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2019
    JustSheila likes this.
  18. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    HI Hats! :bighug: It's been a long time. Good to see you!

    I REALLY like this idea (above). Animals do this all the time - wild animals become humanized when we take care of them, and they take on human traits and human likes and dislikes as well.

    People also do it.

    "Mirroring" is a great word for this. This is a terrific philosophy and I've never heard it before. Did you come up with this yourself? Wow. Seriously cool. :)
  19. Hatshepsut

    Hatshepsut Crusader

    Yes, you got me right, on every point. Thankyou. It's nice to feel understood.

    You're probably right about resistance. When I first got into Scn, other students would use words like "Don't ridge up". As a teen I was forced to recognize that I was flowing my own energy into what the antagonist was using against me. I think most newbies are able to intuit what the basics are right off. Certain ideas just feel right and align things for the person.

    Good point about 'why' those who have had a lot of auditing still go down into rabbit holes like that. Lack of awareness maybe. Also, mass can balloon up out of a dormant state and have more of a similar wavelength to the PC . Inadvertent misconceptions about self can happen because of how processes are worded or how one's auditor assumes a case to be. A PC given auditing commands is suggested to look at things a certain way. I think each time that 'way' missed the mark with me, it acted as a wrong item. As human beings, we're in a NOT KNOW. We experience located awareness and don't really KNOW what our full spiritual past has been. It's easy for someone to audit us 'as if' we are put together some way we are NOT. People are not all the same nor have they played in this universe the same amount of time, IMO.

    I am still learning too. I am surprised when I find new explanations for things I couldn't quite put into words before. Jewish mysticism is my latest interest. I'd been interested in Tibetan magic but there was little I read that resonated with how I sensed things might be. I was interested in the Nag Hammadi gospels and the translations often didn't give the clearest picture. I wanted for the longest time to read the true knowledge of the Essenes. I'm looking for something as if I've forgotten toooo much and will go downhill rapidly if I don't get it back, I guess.

    Yes, I do feel I had the advantage of a past life within the Buddhist tradition.
  20. Hatshepsut

    Hatshepsut Crusader

    Hugs to you too. Been gone for so long I don't know how to use the emojis any more. I am really tired right now, Sheila. Just spotted your reply when I was going to bed. The sun is up already. Wow.

    I didn't come up with mirroring. The concept is in the Gnostic writings having to do with the creation of this world. I believe it's in the Zohar also.