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Featured Hubbard on Xenu, Class 8 course

Discussion in 'Scientology-related Videos' started by Veda, Jul 7, 2008.

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  1. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    L. Ron Hubbard's Class 8 lectures, excerpts and background

    Long before the Internet...

    http://www.xenu-directory.net/critics/notaro1.html
     
  2. Challenge

    Challenge Silver Meritorious Patron

    I have no doubts that the 8 tapes were edited as they were recorded by LRH in order to cut out extraneous sounds, but there is another reason for the starts and stops on the tapes. The Cl8 tapes that originally hit the Internet were copied from the Cl8 tapes in the Cl8 courseroom at AOLA. The guy copying them had to stop the tape when the Sup came around, or when there was a course break. Then he had to re-start them. I have no data as to whether the Cl8 tapes that are on the 'Net now are those specific copies, but they probably are.
    *Some* of you guys have expressed the opinion that Scn was all roses and spititual gain and enlightenment before the 1970s. Let me disabuse you of that idea. The reason that you don't see old timer's opinions of Scn before 1960 is because most of them are dead. Dead, Jim. Unable to tell their stories on the 'net. Had you audited old timers, had you known the ones who were abandoned, thrown away, lied to, humiliated and diminished, you would see that nothing has changed in cos. Yes. It is sure worse now that cos has found ways to run programs such as Sea Org, and it's Master, the RPF. The nice fluffy stories that you hear from old timers are from those who stayed in, or those who feared retribution, or those who wallowed in self-perceived superiority. Just like today, with the exception that their voices were not heard .
     
  3. Challenge

    Challenge Silver Meritorious Patron

    That IS what LRH said: " What is true FOR YOU is true FOR YOU".
     
  4. Lovesnightsky

    Lovesnightsky Silver Meritorious Patron

    In reality though, "what is true for LRH is true for you, and if it is not, then you are sent to cramming until it is"
     
  5. Mark A. Baker

    Mark A. Baker Sponsor


    The choice to go or not is yours. :)


    Mark A. Baker
     
  6. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Thanks for the Hubbard paraphrase, but we knew that before Hubbard wrapped his rubbery lips around your universe.
     
  7. Lovesnightsky

    Lovesnightsky Silver Meritorious Patron

    REALLY??????

    NOOOOOOOO!!!! :duh: :duh: :duh: :duh:
     
  8. Mark A. Baker

    Mark A. Baker Sponsor

    Really!

    YES! :)

    Truth of the matter is, you ALWAYS have the right to disagree. That can't be taken from ya'. Question is: what would YOU prefer to be responsible for? Going along with others despite your own reservations, OR standing by your own views?:)

    If someone seeks to make you wrong for your choices, that's not your problem. When you agree with them, it IS. :)



    Mark A. Baker
     
  9. Lovesnightsky

    Lovesnightsky Silver Meritorious Patron

    Don't get your knickers in a twist. I was being sarcastic.
    However, your second post does place a question, when does the cult victim cease to have a choice and free will?
    Are ethics and blowing and being declared SP and not being able to talk to one's family or friends a viable option for free will and not to do the cramming order?
     
  10. alex

    alex Gold Meritorious Patron

    "when does the cult victim cease to have a choice and free will?"

    When they decide it is that way and not some other.
     
  11. Lovesnightsky

    Lovesnightsky Silver Meritorious Patron

    Can you clarify? I don't understand your statement.
     
  12. Mark A. Baker

    Mark A. Baker Sponsor

    A. My knickers aren't twisted, but thanks for your concern. :coolwink:

    B. YOU? SARCASTIC? I can't believe it. You seem so sweet and innocent. :)




    Individuals ALWAYS have choice and free will. They may feel overwhelmed, coerced & compelled, but the power of CHOICE remains with them. Whether they FEEL capable of exercising that choice is a different thing entirely and is a matter of individual "case".

    There is certainly no guarantee they will like the possible outcomes which might result from their choices. But, but then this is not a perfect world, is it? However, the question "what have you done or what are you doing to create or reinforce your current circumstance?" is always an appropriate one.

    The relief from the acting out or dramatization of overwhelm is something many of us have found to be an incredibly valuable result of auditing. This is especially so when GOOD auditing actually addresses areas of suppression, service facsimiles, overts/withholds, and missed withhold phenomena. All of these represent forms of diminished responsibility for one's OWN actions & decisions.

    As an example, the original HRD was notorious for producing pc's who simply refused to go along anymore with activities they considered unethical. Quite a few of the initial completions left involvement with the Co$ within a short span of completing the rundown. No doubt this was a significant factor in the Co$ decision revise the rundown into something less likely to produce disobedience. :)


    Mark A. Baker
     
  13. Lovesnightsky

    Lovesnightsky Silver Meritorious Patron

    Awwww, thank you. :giggle:



    I would like to think, like you, that it is so simple and black and white. In fact I personally did blow staff when I disagreed with their truth and refused the retread even though my son was still in. He followed me out after a couple of years.
    However. And this is a conversation I recently had with a work associate. I had the stand you basically have, that humans always have a choice. The topic was addiction. When does the addict stop having a choice with regard taking whatever substance/situation they are addicted to?
    Do they ever stop having a choice?
    After researching this I now believe that the person reaches a point where they stop having a choice. Of course this point is not written in stone and if the dynamics change the person might have a choice again, but saying that people "always" have "free will" or a choice, is not true. Remember that hard believers think that if they leave they will be trapped without a bridge not just for this life time but forever.
     
  14. Mark A. Baker

    Mark A. Baker Sponsor


    In the case of physical addiction I can see your point, although it is by no means clear that physical addiction eliminates choice. It does further constrain an individual's options, though.

    From a spiritual perspective it is even less clear that such a conclusion is correct. For instance, what spiritual factors may have contributed to the "creation" of the "physical addiction"? To what degree is the spiritual being responsible for those factors? With regard to non-physically motivated addiction, such an apparent "lack of choice" is even less defensible.



    We disagree on this. :omg:

    I fully accept that an individual may feel so overwhelmed, out of control, and helpless as to not see themselves as having the power of choice. That is NOT the same as saying that they lack that power. They merely fail to perceive or accept it as real.

    However, those therapeutic practices which work at reversing such conditions are precisely those which RESTORE the individual's recognition of his own power of choice. That supports the validity of power of choice as the key determinant of an individual's state.

    Arguably all of "case" amounts to self-imposed limitations on own power of choice.


    And that represents a consideration to which they have chosen to agree and are free to reevaluate at any point of their own choosing.


    Mark A. Baker
     
  15. Lovesnightsky

    Lovesnightsky Silver Meritorious Patron

    It is good that this is your reality. Unfortunately not everyone in the world is as strong as you nor do they have your strong sense of self determinism which could save them when they get in a pickle such as a brainwashing and controlling cult.
     
  16. degraded being

    degraded being Sponsor

    You have choice?

    A lot of the "bait" in scientology is returning a person to self determinism, remember?

    Everybody has to compromise in dealing with others unless they are a blockheaded arsehole. So DM thinks he doesn't have to comprimise.

    The fuzzy edges on when we are being pushed around and when we could or should assert ourselves are used to exploit people. Part of "find the ruin". Choice is sabotaged right at the outset. Remember?

    Another point here Mark Baker is that you, per your argument, do not mind having your sense of choice manipulated, or you are suggesting that all your involvement in scio is by your own choice. Many exes feel that their choice was covertly sabotaged. But you don't. You do it all because you want to?
     
  17. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Well, one thing that Baker, apparently, wants to do is make this thread about anything else, other than the Class 8 course, which is kind of silly, since the info is still here on the thread but, nonetheless, this seems to be standard distraction-noise procedure.
     
  18. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Very much appreciate you sharing your experience and insights, and also appreciate your forthrightness. Please post more! Your input is definitely needed.
     
  19. Challenge

    Challenge Silver Meritorious Patron

    Thanks, Veda. I have been pretty much discouraged from posting here as I get little to no feedback. I have been surprised at how little interest was shown in the fact that one of the "biggie" Power Processes was kicked up to the old OT4. And etcetera. So thank you much for responding to my post. I appreciate it.

    CHLNG
     
  20. degraded being

    degraded being Sponsor

    I really appreciated your post too. And pointing out things like the fact that we don't hear about how things were in the early days/sea project days - because a lot of the people are now dead. Small details with huge significance.

    IMO most posters here see all the early-timers and sea project / early sea org posters as very important in understanding the big picture.
    I hope you keep posting.