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I finally got it...

Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by Mojo, Oct 18, 2007.

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  1. Tanstaafl

    Tanstaafl Crusader

    It seems to me that there is no inherent problem with identities so long as one can pick them up and drop them at will. A Scn would benefit from drilling the alternate mocking-up of themselves as:-
    A. Scn fundamentalist, and
    B. Rabid antagonist
    - the same for an Ex.

    The key is to find what attracts us to identities: being part of a group, getting attention, etc.

    Didn't LRH say that an OT, to get to such a state, would have to be willing to be anything in this universe? Another important datum the CoS would never practise! :duh:


  2. Div6

    Div6 Crusader

    I beg to differ...

    This is from History of Man:

    "There is another thing you should know about these incidents and
    the emotional state of the preclear: he has become in his own eyes
    so degraded by force invalidation that he has devoted himself to
    this vegetable thing, the MEST body, as the last ditch effort to
    control some part of the environment. HE is invalidated to nothing.
    So the BODY has to be something.

    And there is something else, a scale you should have of

    CRITICISM AND COUNTER-CRITICISM are the overt and motivator
    invalidations on the thought level. MISEMOTIONALISM AND COUNTER-
    MISEMOTIONALISM are the overt and motivator invalidations on the
    emotion level.

    motivator invalidations on the effort level.

    In current or recent lives thought, emotion and effort hang up
    on the early theta line incidents. If you can't get a theta line
    incident of the electronics type to unburden, run criticism and
    countercriticism in the current life."
  3. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    And it never stopped Ron, or anyone other Scientologist from engaging in carping 1.1 criticism not borne out in fact of psychiatry, the government, the FDA, bankers, Freezoners, critics, etc. etc.

    I don't consider anything Hubbard said about criticism as valid.

    He was the utmost hippo-critic. It is patently obvious that his criticism of criticism was not criticism of criticism at all. But an attempt to avoid criticism and critical thinking of his own words and actions by those who were buying his services.

    My discussion is completely outside any LRH reference, or any of his attempts to control or dominate people in order to enrich himself.
  4. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    I agree with you here.

    And I will agree with Ron when he said that in order to be OT you have to be willing and able to assume any viewpoint at will.

    Maybe I'll go back to being a fervent Churchie for a while and wear that one out, too.
  5. Free to shine

    Free to shine Shiny & Free

    Very good point. I've done the same thing from time to time with the medical stuff. But then I can tend to get a bit obsessive with my interests. :melodramatic:

    And how can you not be obsessive to some degree on something that is an integral part of who you are and what you therefore project?

    I have had long periods of time when I almost forgot about Scn. Partly because there was no-one in my life to talk about it with! Almost is the signifcant word - it's always there to some degree, as is anything we experience.

    I really can't answer for anyone else, I just know that from time to time I need to really get into the nitty gritty of the whole subject on the trail to self understanding and other times I can let it go.
    It's good to take a break. But if you can't ... then hey...don't beat yourself up. Right now I would really, really, REALLY like like to present mountains of evidence of the harm it does to a certain person and go do spiritual battle. :angry: Ahh...remember to breathe..... we are who we are.
  6. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    This is a totally unreal and invalid categorization of criticism.

    Since beings are basically social, criticism can also fit much more easily within that context.

    Criticism is an attempt to improve the actions, ideas and coordination of others into a more workable and beautiful society for us all.

    It is an attempt to improve.

    It is very much pro-survival in its intent.

    It is not an attempt to destroy. It is an attempt to correct.

    Hubbard, being completely unwilling to correct himself or to follow the rules of society if it got in his way to enriching himself, was absolutely bent on destroying criticism.
  7. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    You are very much like me!

  8. Tanstaafl

    Tanstaafl Crusader

    Firstly, when was the last time you heard anyone quote that reference?
    (Which, of course, makes it no less valid) I was talking about the ref. that most people refer to in order to justify getting misemotional about criticism and also to deflect it.

    That's still only a narrow part of the criticism band.
    One could mock-up a criticism and see how far up and down the tone scale it could be shifted. Are we saying that one could not criticise in the spirit of play?

    Sure, one can use criticism in an effort to hurt or hit back. But there's a lot more to criticism than that. Maybe Hubbard was sloppy with his terminology here.

    When me and Mrs T watch a movie we have a coffee and a few smokes and really analyse it. If you like, you can say the bits we thought didn't work are criticisms and the bits we thought worked well are not. It's interesting, it's uptone and it's not personal (re director, actors, etc).

    Hubbard presented data out of context and failed to integrate it into the big picture. That's why people with only fair-to-middling intellects like myself struggle to study the subject as it is laid out. Hubbard references are strewn with criticisms from psychs to RC to bankers to politicians, ad nauseum.


  9. Tanstaafl

    Tanstaafl Crusader

    I don't recall him having a go at horses?????
  10. Free to shine

    Free to shine Shiny & Free

    Does that give me brownie points on the Road to Total Status? You cast a big shadow. :coolwink:
  11. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    I would love to have a smoke and coffee with you and Mrs T and just rip the shit out of some movies together.

    We can start with "The Devil Wears Prada"!
  12. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    Oh yeah.

    And waterbucks, too.
  13. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    Everybody always wants a piece of me.
  14. Free to shine

    Free to shine Shiny & Free

    I know, it's hard bloody work! :roflmao:

    Actually it's good for me to write this stuff out.
  15. Tanstaafl

    Tanstaafl Crusader

    You're welcome to stick your feet on our coffee table any time. But we only smoke in the garage which is bloody cold, the only advantage of which is that it encourages criticism of a most succinct nature. :)

    We can start with "The Devil Wears Prada"![/QUOTE]

    Hah! You've got a lot to learn about pressing mybuttons!
    That film was a dream compared to recent adaptations of Pride and Prejudice and Vanity Fair. [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    What I really don't like is writers/directors totally failing to duplicate or even deliberately twist the meaning of the original author. :angry: