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I love Scientology

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by egghead, Aug 4, 2008.

  1. asagai

    asagai Patron Meritorious

    Good to hear you didn't get into ethics trouble by posting on here instead of being on course. But from the info you gave and the times you posted I can only conclude that you carried on posting while in the courseroom! :confused2:

    You said you were due on course "in a few minutes" but carried on posting for almost three hours!

    I think scientologists would refer to what I am doing as recognising an "outpoint" and "pulling the string". :)

    You previously told us you were ineligable to do services, other than a correspondence course, because you had misused NOTs data by reverse processing on ARS. If you are now on course, have you handled your ethics standing? Have you passed a sec check as regards posting on ESMB and associating with SPs like us?

    Some ex-scns like myself are having trouble working out how you are dodging through the ethics system of the church. Perhaps you can explain it so that we better understand the current setup in the CofS. Thanks.
  2. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    It could be improved by making the "walk" more attractive. Let's see...

    What springs immediately to mind is aspartame and sucralose, but those don't even confer any real benefits on the user while poisoning him! What else...

    Actually, pretty much anything we do in modern blinkered life would do, where we are enjoying the cheap goodies while ignoring the long-term costs in term of a polluted, dying biosphere. Like filling one's house with electronic gizmos and other articles made in China and bought at low cost locally without anyone factoring in the real costs of environmental degradation. It's a one-way street. Full speed towards the cliff edge while partying and not noticing the upcoming abrupt change in scenery. But too gloomy for a neat little analogy about Scn.

    I've kinda lost interest in this now. Sorry.

  3. SchwimmelPuckel

    SchwimmelPuckel Genuine Meatball

    I'm reminded of the Beatles movie! - One of those four gentlemen took off his jacket and laid it on a puddle in the road, so that a lady could wald over and not get her feet wet... But apparently there was a manholecover taken off unseen in the puddle.. The lady simply dissappeared down the sewer beneath!

    I'm also reminded of an accident I read about.. (Failed to find anything on the net tho..)

    Anyways.. Guy sitting strapped in on a seat, at the stern of a fishing boat, holding a largish fishing rod. They were fishing for swordfish.. And he got a really big one hooked. Reeling him in.. The swordfish fought and rocketed out of the water, then dived straight at the fisherman and stabbed him right though!

    He pulled it in! :yes:

    (I think the man survived it.)

    But let's not forget that scientologists really did believe that 'the OT's' were the real why that the Berlin wall came down.. They also thought that they diverted tornadoes away from Clearwater once.. Abeit they never apologised to the people living where the tornado went instead.

    And we got all those wonderful OT wins and success stories from their promotional magazines.

  4. FinallyMe

    FinallyMe Silver Meritorious Patron

    Alex, first let me validate you for having thought some more about what has been discussed in this thread -- I love someone who is willing to re-consider new ideas.

    Next, I want to be sure we are all on the same page, that "controlling" what happens to you is not the same thing as being responsible for it or causing it.

    And of course, just wanted to mention that Scn's working definition (not per the books) of "cause" and "responsibility" is BLAME. To me, that's what makes it so unacceptable coming out of a Scn's mouth.

    Last, Alanzo, VERY good analogy and I agree with everything you said. EXCEPT that I would like you to also consider the guy running along the sidewalk, hears someone screaming his name from across the street, so he stops to look at whoever is calling him - he stops just before he falls into the hole.

    It's my opinion that each detail one's life does not need to be "thought out" "consciously caused" or individually considered in order to believe oneself to be responsible for and/or causative of how his/her life goes. I look at it more as: this lifetime, I need to figure out how to deal with anger problems. Therefore, I think the TYPE of events are set up (or asked for) to accomplish that goal. Like, for instance, maybe my entire family and my neighbors are all angry people. Maybe one of them isn't, and from that can become aware of an alternative to anger. I can encounter many opportunities to respond with anger, and hopefully eventually find out that blasting someone out of the room doesn't work. Okay, so now I need to try something else, but what. Then I meet a guy who counts to 10 before he explodes -- I'll try that. Kind of like the poem that was posted on another thread - where friends are for a reason, a season or a lifetime. What I'm saying here is that I think I have asked for and receive the TYPE of experiences I have in order to grow in a larger sense.

    One reason I don't find that I create EACH experience is that I find there is synchronicity in life. I think there's someone out there who has a lifetime issue that he/she is dealing with, who will be aided in their own learning experience by having an encounter with me and my issues -- like I blow up at someone, who feels really miserable as a result, and now understands what that feels like when they do it to someone else.

    Yak yak yak, but it's a hard concept to try to describe.
  5. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    I sure agree with you there!!!! :)
  6. Mark A. Baker

    Mark A. Baker Sponsor

    Also, it is important to acknowledge from the beginning that not only are "cause" & "responsibility" two separate things but neither concept arises from a "singular" factor.

    All effects have multiple contributory causes. Similarly, acceptance of responsibility for a given circumstance(s) does not alter the responsibility of others for the same circumstance(s).

    A simple example: a friend's daughter recently graduated high school having achieved many singular honors, accomplishments & credits during her school years. (REALLY GREAT KID!!!)

    As hard as she worked to accomplish so much, she nevertheless realizes the great extent to which both her mother & aunt contributed, both directly & indirectly, to her success. She also recognizes the extent of both of their acceptance of responsibility (as well as that of the other members of her family) in aiding her in her achievements.

    She is principle cause & bears primary responsibility for her achievements & actions. However, many others have been contributory causes to and in part responsible for the circumstances & accomplishments in her life.

    NOBODY accomplishes ANYTHING by HIMSELF.

    Another completely separate issue from the subjects of either "cause" or "responsibility" is the matter of "blame". That is where too many "come a cropper", in that all to often "blame" is confused or substituted for matters of "responsibility" or "cause". "Blame" is neither. It is instead a distraction from useful thought or action. "Blame" is a waste of time.

    My example of my friend's daughter is a "positive" one, nonetheless contributory cause & multiple responsibility are not limited to "positives". As an example of such, the actions of church staff members typically result in strong "negative" consequences. Consequences for which those individuals have been causal contributors and share personal responsibility.

    "Denial" is not a valid "resolution".

    The way "out" is through acceptance of PERSONAL responsibility and one's own role as a contributor to causality. It is often necessary to examine the roles that others play both as contributory causes and with respect to the responsibilities which they may have (and possibly shirk). Nevertheless, resolving the matter for one's self means addressing that which one has caused and/or for which has been responsible.

    What tends to make this "suppressive" within the Co$ is the coercive force used in the absolute denial of responsibility on the part of the church, church management, & LRH.

    Spotting that conduct as "suppressive" is important to a person's well-being. Spotting one's own responsibility for "agreeing" with it and how the individual contributed to this state is ESSENTIAL.

    Mark A. Baker
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2008
  7. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    Excellent post, Mark!

    Frikkin' Brav-O!
  8. ThisFenceHurts

    ThisFenceHurts Patron with Honors

    I don't have a disagreement with taking responsibility for CHANGING one's situation and deciding to make the best of the situation one finds oneself in.

    The error in your thinking is in assuming that everyone has ALL the DATA available when making decisions in life.

    Had I known what Scientology was like, what the OT Levels were all about, the misapplication of some written policy, the CRAZY written policy such as Fair Game etc, I may not have joined. This fellow may not have joined either.

    The question to you is this: IF THIS PERSON IS THERE BECAUSE OF HIS ACTIONS, WHAT ACTIONS COULD HE/SHE HAVE TAKEN AS AN ALTERNATIVE TO AVOID THIS? There may not have been a way to find out about the OT Levels. Perhaps this person got involved before they were leaked. Perhaps they got in before the OT Levels were even CREATED. Before ETHICS was CREATED in Scn policy. How does one find out about the atrocities committed by Scn nowadays? The internet. Has the internet always been available? No. So tell me, Alex, what should this guy have done differently? What should we all have done differently? Time for you to provide some answers instead of rhetoric.
  9. asagai

    asagai Patron Meritorious

    Never got a reply Alex.

    Given that we know Scientologists are taught to create "shore stories" I think it is reasonable on ESMB for a scientologist to be questioned about inconsistancies in the data that they use to explain why they are on ESMB.

    You can choose not to answer, but we will obviously make our own conclusions about that and about you.

    There are contrary facts in your story. Which fact or facts are incorrect?
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2008
  10. Pascal

    Pascal Silver Meritorious Patron


    That is something Alex is not ready to do. After all, she has no balls. :coolwink:
  11. alex

    alex Gold Meritorious Patron

    Yes given what you "know", I am sure you WILL make conclusions.

    I think I am beyond being able to change what those will be by providing you data.

    So have fun with it. I sure find it entertaining to read what people envision me as, when all the stereotypes, inferences and just plain silly leaps of "intuition", gel into something that "fits" the reality their minds allow...

    Rest assured though that your imagination is more interesting than real life in this case.

    Hows that for a non answer?

  12. asagai

    asagai Patron Meritorious

    Nice application of "always attack, never defend". :thumbsup:

    When I was trained in False data Stripping I was not allowed to get diverted by things like that. So as regards the contradictory "facts" in your story about yourself outlined in the previous posts? .....
  13. alex

    alex Gold Meritorious Patron

    Alex is a pseudonym. A created character to some extent and one I have allowed others input, to add to.

    But for me, having the avenue of an anonymous character through whom I can say and do things that I may in real life, not, is very liberating.

    "Alex" has said things about me that even my spouse has not heard. I value that outlet.

    There are people on this board who do have access to my "real" identity, and that does to some extent keep me in check, although sometimes I regret not keeping alex totally to myself....

    But as to my story, feel free to fill in whatever blanks you find with whatever information serves you. I am fine with that. It comes with the role.

    I hope that makes sense to you...

  14. Escalus

    Escalus Patron Meritorious

    At the risk of "pulling it in' (oh brother) I would just like to -once again -say that "alex" knows my name, where I live, and by now should have no doubts about what I feel about scientology.

    There are no PIs in the street, nobody with protest signs outside my house, my boss hasn't gotten funny messages, and the only thing that's happened relative to responses from the "church" to me has been the arrival of unordered porn tapes from LA after I sent my last "I will now convince the letter screener to blow since I told you if you kept contacting me that's what I would do" letter. Which was returned to sender because I don't do porn.

    So insofar as i can tell alex is either helping set me up for one big fall or is not as insidious as some people are making him out to be. I would be disappointed with the former, and suspect the latter.
  15. Zinjifar

    Zinjifar Silver Meritorious Sponsor

    I'd say that there is just plain no way to 'know' who's OSA and who's not. Luckily, it doesn't make a lot of difference. In fact, the only reason to even speculate is that it can offer an extra level of insight into what, otherwise, can be very murky motives.

    As a personal thing, I'd say I like Alex more than I even like some 'critics', but, that too is irrelevant. And, I'd trust him more, rightly or wrongly too.

    I'd say the necessary level of 'security' in personal info etc. is 'need to know', but, we all make our choices how rigidly we want to apply that, and squander our 'trust' profligately :)

  16. asagai

    asagai Patron Meritorious

    Esc and Zinj, with respect you are both missing the point.

    I'm not filling anything in into the blanks! Maybe Alex want's people to, but by filling them in with possible answers, you are playing that game if that is the one he is playing.

    I am simply asking Alex to explain the contradictory "facts". From his last answer he seems to be saying he is making them up. Ok. That's fine. The "facts" about him being on course, being in a low ethics standing, doing a correspondence course, being ineligable for services due to reverse processing of NOTs on ARS, these are all likely to be invented.

    Ok, that's fantastic. :thumbsup:

    Now we know that anything Alex says about "himself" is likely to be invented and untrue. That's the string pulled. Alex has identified himself as an unreliable source for any info or opinions that he originates. Fine. Absolutely fine.
  17. Escalus

    Escalus Patron Meritorious

    My approach to alex was based on something completely outside the realm of scientology or poster personas or anything. It was my impression we found common ground on something outside of all of this. I went into it talking to another person.

    If he's an operative or will have to use my info to perform a condition at some later time or whatever, and that trust is broken - then I'll have all I need to know about confirming my suspicions about scientology as a whole.

    I made all my due precautions before jumping into this - and made sure my daughter married a guy on the police force to boot :)

    But I think it would wind up being something alex himself would have to live with, and I just don't have a sense that he would put himself in that spot. Yes I could be wrong and wrong BIG TIME. But I doubt it.
  18. alex

    alex Gold Meritorious Patron

    And there you go.

    Since my desire is to "play" in the realm of ideas, rather than hash out whats what in the realm of "facts", it suits me fine.

    I would be quite happy be taken up only on concepts rather than having to prove things. How reliable are concepts anyway?

    Thanks Asagai.

  19. Iknowtoomuch

    Iknowtoomuch Gold Meritorious Patron

    The only conclusion I can make about Alex is that he/she still can't think entirely outside of the Scientology box. :confused2:
  20. alex

    alex Gold Meritorious Patron

    Nope. Not entirely.

    I've come to realize that too...

    alex (who none the less strives for self ownership of all ideas)