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I simply have no words

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by marjan, Nov 15, 2011.

  1. marjan

    marjan Patron with Honors

    On Friday, I sang a concert in Munich, Germany. There I met with one of my dearest friends, a former Sea Org Member, who stood by my side during all the negative fall-out that I experienced due to my association with Scientology. This woman lost her job 6 times because of her association with me. She has been my best friend all these years.

    She left the SO in 1982, and has been paying off around €180,000 in debt from her Freeloader, Tax problems and her OT Levels. She has lived under ENORMOUS pressure for the last 30 years. Her health is not good. Her marriage has been a shambles since I know her, but due to financial problems, they could never separate. Since founding her own business a few years ago, she has lost numerous large consulting contracts because of being a Scientologist.

    On Friday, she informed me, even after everything that she has experienced; after witnessing everything that happened to me; after dealing with OSA, IAS, and the corrupted CC Network for ALL THESE YEARS.... she was going to get a divorce in the summer and move to Copenhagen and join the Sea Organization once again.

    I was stunned. I was horrified. I was speechless.

    "How could you possibly ignore EVERYTHING that you have experienced over the last 30 years? How could you pretend that NONE of that happened? How can you look me in the eye and tell me 'Yes but things have changed, now?'" I asked her?

    I told my friend, "I love you dearly. Nobody wanted you to be happy more than me... but I CANNOT ACCEPT OR SUPPORT THIS DECISION, not in any way. I cannot sit here and talk small talk with you, when I know that you are about to throw away the few years that you have remaining by signing up for the SO again. I simply cannot."

    Dear readers here on the forum, I am sorry to puke all of this out, on all of you. But today, I had to stop a friendship of more than 16 years. My heart is broken for my friend, who remains willfully blind to everything that occurred in our lives.

    If that is not "brainwashed" then I don't know what is.

    Thanks for listening.
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2011
  2. Markus

    Markus Silver Meritorious Patron

    May you please send me a PM and tell me the name of this woman. Maybe I know her and can get in contact with her in order to tell her the story of my brother Uwe.

    Thank you for sharing this story.

    Love and a :bighug:

  3. Jachs

    Jachs Gold Meritorious Patron

    Your friend sounds scared and lost.

    patience , friendship & unconditional love may not win today but it will be remembered 2moro, after false promises have expired.
  4. Infinite

    Infinite Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller

    Sorry to read about your friend. I imagine its something like watching a drug addict you love who starts using again. Having been in that situation myself, I found that, as mentioned above, maintaining contact (on your own terms but with Love) eventually becomes a source of strength to the addict if (or when) they decide to go clean again. You can't live their life for them, but you can be there to stand at their side when no one else will.
  5. MrNobody

    MrNobody Who needs merits?

    Thanks for telling us, Marjan.

    For the non-Europeans here: 180000 € (EUR) is roughly 240000 $ (USD), almost a quarter million.

    Money doesn't guarantee happiness, but your friend could live quite a relaxed life if she still had it. Sigh...
  6. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    Some "dreams" die very hard deaths. These dreams resist going back into the nothingness from whence they came. No matter how absurd, stupid, unrealistic or deceitful they might be. Some people do NOT want to "look at what is". They instead remain forever lost in their over-active idealized imaginations.

    I know a few people who have been out for MANY years, and they still occassionally mention that they "miss the group spirit and community". They miss the whole "feeling part of something bigger". No matter how insane it may have been or still is.

    My comment is, "if you want to be part of something bigger just LOOK AROUND". You are already, right now, forever surrounded by a "something bigger". Much bigger than any "Scientology". Try tuning into it.
  7. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    Some "benefit" I got from being involved in Scientology for 10 years is I have a much greater understanding of what it is like to brainwashed. :omg:

    High quality brainwashing leaves the victim with NO awareness that he has been brainwashed. I made some extremely stupid decisions during those years and looking back now I am trying to figure out what someone could have told me during that period that would have woken me up, and I've not been able to come up with anything. :no:

    As I posted in a different thread a couple days ago - some of the same techniques that are used to change our values and manipulate our choices in life are the same techniques used to create a suicide bomber. It's pretty powerful stuff.

    Not that I would recommend ANYONE to join the Sea Org, but it is even worse for your friend who has health issues. When her health is bad enough to interfere with her doing slave labor for the SO the cult will drop her so fast. Or in some cases will attempt to convince people that the greatest good is to drop their body and come back in 18 years. It's very cost-effective for the S.O. :grouch:

    If you want to help your friend I'd recommend consulting with someone who is an expert at understanding the mind control techniques used or minimally educating yourself to some degree. Here's a good place to start:
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2011
  8. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    This! :thumbsup:

    I like this approach. :yes:

    Mark, even if your friend follows through and joins the S.O. she may quickly change her mind.

    The S.O. today isn't as it was in 1982. I suspect it won't take her long to see that for herself.

    I was in briefly myself during 1988/89 and can't believe the level of insanity I personally witnessed. It's not what I signed up for. :no::omg:
  9. marjan

    marjan Patron with Honors

    Hi Markus, thank you for your kind offer. I would tell you her name, but it would not help. She has dealt with INSANE "OT8s"; watch NUMEROUS of our mutual friends die VERY young on the OT Levels, and witnessed first-hand the insanity of how my situation was handled with the church. After all that, there is no story that you could tell that would change her mind. I am the only person in the world that she listens to, and even I cannot get through to her.

    Thank you again, I truly appreciate your offer!
  10. marjan

    marjan Patron with Honors

    That is my greatest hope. that she will realize that she is getting PR'd in the moment. Once she is there, I told her, she can call me at any time, and say "Please come and get me out of here!" and I will jump on the next plane.
  11. marjan

    marjan Patron with Honors

    I couldn't agree with you more! I understand about the "death of a dream". I certainly went through a long mourning process over SCN myself. I can only hope that it will be SOOO f**king BRUTAL in the SO for my friend that she will get in and get out fast....
  12. marjan

    marjan Patron with Honors

    I told my friend "This is like watching one of my daughters throw themselves off of a cliff! How do you deal with that???"

    No, I can't live her life for her. We have just agreed to stay in contact, but NOT to speak about SCN anymore --- except if she decides NOT to back into the S.O.
  13. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    I might add that each of us are the actual CREATOR of our own dreams. Too many of us go through life trying to find "hints", "clues" and "props" out there to "attach onto" for dreams. We look to be prodded by things from "out there" to trigger our "dream-making process" inside. Scientology tricks one into setting that inner dream-making machinery into motion, and to latching it onto the Scientology paradigm.

    There are lots of things one can wish for, set as ideals and dream. No need to necessarily keep this restricted to the meager offerings and options currently available.

    It's sort of funny because we each fully create out our dreams, even if some of them are by virtue of agreeing with some already existing ideal or dream (from a book, from a religion, from a philosophy). And then we go through this absurd behavior of "feeling bad" when we "lose the dream". YOU created it. Just create another one! :confused2:

    But as far as your friend goes, I suspect that she has "attached her own dreams" a bit too hard to the Scientology paradigm. Some people feel lost without that "prop".

    I would add to what you said about going through a "long mourning process over SCN myself". How it happened for me is that the REALITY of Scientology continual spat in the face of my OWN lofty ideals, visions and imaginations about what it WAS. I attached my own good and decent ideals to Scientology. But, the reality of the true subject, practices and results of Scientology constantly chipped away at my "dream". Simply, the "dream" of Scientology, as it is entertained in the minds of adherents, has little or nothing to do with ACTUAL Scientology. I was saddened because Scientology turned out NOT to be what it pretended to be. I liked the "pretend". But, it wasn't "real". The sadness was in slowly realizing THAT.

    And, I said, fuck it, and just found another dream to latch onto!!!!!!!!!
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2011
  14. frhidden

    frhidden Patron with Honors

    Hi Marjan,

    While I understand your dismay, this person has the right to decide to rejoin the Sea Org. IMO classing this as brainwashing is not useful. She has a lot of information, she is not deprived of sleep and food. She is an adult.

    I sympathize with your disagreement with what she is planning. I am sure you will be there for her if/when she changes her mind.

    Sounds like she is living an interested and interesting life and is a good person to have as a friend. Good for both of you.

  15. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    People have the "right" to walk in front of a moving bus too. It doesn't make it sensible, right or even the "decent" thing to do.

    Personally, I don't think the Sea Org has a "right" to exist considering the tremendous amout of lies, manipulation, and REAL HARM that emanates from that organization on a daily basis. :omg:

    But yeah, people in democratic countries have the "right" to contribute to and do REALLY STUPID things. I would have NO TROUBLE pointing that out to her in great detail if she were my "friend". "Supporting" her to rejoin the Sea Org is supporting the idea that a person can and should contribute to the abomination known as the Church of Scientology. It would be like if a friend of mine said that he was going to go back to supporting extremist Islam, and probably would blow up a few dozen kids in a suicide bombing. This acceptance of peope's choices "because they are an adult" gets ABSURD when pushed to "liberal extremes".

    The Sea Org is THAT group that primarily keeps the lies and deceit of Hubbard alive. Any aware, sane and decent person should DISSUADE her from assisting the Sea Org.
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2011
  16. Lermanet_com

    Lermanet_com Gold Meritorious Patron

    Sit down with this person and, with them read the posts in this thread from the last few days A Bold Statement
  17. marjan

    marjan Patron with Honors

    The biggest problem with that, is that she does not speak anything but the most rudimentary english. I have already spoken with her numerous times, about her lack of information. However, since the most damning evidence against CoS comes from former SO Members from Int. Mgmt, and almost NONE of them are German, then it presents a problem of comprehension.

    If she read english, I would have already had her here reading.
  18. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    Be patient, be lovingly persistent, and use a good interpreter. :confused2:
  19. Lurker5

    Lurker5 Gold Meritorious Patron

    My guess, she feels she has nothing left, nowhere else to go - and the SO has promised her something to hang on to, somewhere to hang her hat, so to speak. She just wants to feel like something, like someone, be useful and needed - by someone, something - anything. This is so incredibly sad. She has given up - and is going where she thinks she will at least be fed and housed - until the end.

    She is in for a terrible awakening. Be there for her, when she wants to get out. However, that has been made so very difficult, unless one gets off-loaded - and that may happen to her, when she gets dumped somewhere, penniless - and broken - and sick. Will she even be able, then, to contact you?

    She already sounds broken - and depressed, and ready to end it. She has chosen this way to end it. :sadsigh: :sadangel: Death by SO/scno/co$ . . . . Many have.

    Won't she lose all contact, and ability to contact you, when she goes back? I think you had better say good-bye now. She may be lost to you. And maybe not. How do we give up hope - How can we give that up?

    I am sorry, marjan, sorry for your friend, to feel this abandoned and alone, that she would choose certain death - over freedom and life. It means nothing out here is worth it to her. And that is so freaking sad. So sad.

    :no: My prayers go out for her. :pixiedust:
  20. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on


    It sounds like a hopelessly inevitable thing that she will re-join the Sea Org.

    I guess it comes down to whether she is willing to look and know about the billion year organization she wants to join.

    If she cannot be persuaded to learn about this cult before re-joining, then I suppose she will "learn on the job" (the hard way).

    It is an awful thing to watch someone willingly (and unknowingly) elect a path of destruction for themselves.

    Having been in the Sea Org, I can say that if a person doesn't care enough to learn about the group they are joining, especially when a good friend lovingly points them to real & vital information---what hope does this person have of averting disaster?

    She wants to join for a billion years but really cannot afford the time to spend 2-3 days with you to first look at the SP Times exposes about fraud, enslavement and violence? Awful to consider what state of mind she must be in to make such monumental decisions without regard to the consequences to herself.

    Even if someone is considering something as meaningless as buying a small item on eBay, they would typically look at the "REVIEWS" that former customers wrote. And if the seller had horrific reviews and grossly dissatisfied customers, they would be an absolute fool to insist on buying from them.

    All these websites (Xenu, ESMB, Rathbuns, et al....) are really customer reviews.

    I have no solution other than honesty and earnestly offered help. If she refuses help so genuinely given from the heart, what else can you do?

    I can see that i don't have any answers. It is just so frustrating to deal with indoctrinated Scientologists because they do not think and reason like a .....normal human.

    I can only wish you are able to reach thru that haze of confusion she has about how the real world operates.