ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at www.exscn2.net.



Illness Due to Doing Onself In

Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by ExScnDude, Sep 11, 2007.

View Users: View Users
  1. ExScnDude

    ExScnDude Patron with Honors

    I've always found the Scientology idea that "becoming ill is a result of doing oneself in" particularly hard to believe.

    It's a proven fact that individuals who are under stress are more more easily disease-prone.

    During my long staff career, I can not think of a single Scientologist who did not become ill at least once - from Book One through OT VIII. We're we all doing ourselves in? That just doesn't seem to be a likely explanation since most of us were working so hard to move up the bridge.

    I can not think of a single PTS R/D completion who did not at some later point become ill. In fact, and this is based only on my personal observations over a long period of time, I do not believe that the incidence of illness is any less in Scientology than it is in the general population.

    But for me what was particularly repulsive was the idea that the "sickee" was considered to be at cause over his or her body to the degree that the illness must have been intentionally caused.

    You can get in there and run out the PC's agreement with the illness, any prior loss, evil intention, and address the stressors (PTSness) in the PC's environment and add to that the entire plethora of different types of assists with some success - certainly the PC feels better spiritually.

    On the other hand, I've seen both staff and public hide illness in order to avoid another round of PTS or ethics handling. Staff were especially subject to this attitude.

    I'd be interested in hearing what other former tech terminals have to say about this. Any thoughts?
     
  2. Bea Kiddo

    Bea Kiddo Crusader

    I have a few thoughts. Personally and as a tech terminal, I guess.

    First personally, I have been very ill on a number of occasions. I remember a week before my final bust and declare, I was in bed for 5 days. Temp 104. I could not eat, drink, nothing. Throwing up everything (this same flu bug killed at least one Sea Org member that I know of). I went to the doctor and he told me that I was nearly dead. But that was Dr. Denk and it was hard to tell when he was joking and when he was being serious. My weight had gotten down to 101 (seriously underweight). I had to get an IV to get some form of nutrition in me.

    I think then I wanted to die. To get rid of the illness, and to get out of Scn. Not suicidal. Relief.

    ----

    Another time when I was in Venezuela I got food poisoning. Same thing. couldn't eat for days. Weight down to 101. They gave me IV, but they also put some weird clay on my stomach and gave me acupuncture. Felt better. Wanted to die then too.

    Not suicidal. Wanted out of Scn.

    ----

    Technically? Well, supposedly after a PTS RD, you never should rollercoaster or get ill again. So if you do, its either recent out tech (such as an out list, or auditing over out ruds, or incomplete process). If no recent error, the PTS RD would need to be checked for a wrong or missed item. Correct and flatten the RD.

    ----

    Never saw anyone impervious to illness.

    ---

    Scn tech= a load of crap. I can't beleive I bought into it. Its embarrasing.

    If I was anyone's C/S on this board, please accept my apology ahead of time.

    Thank you.

    Peace.

    And use sanitizer and wash your hands regularly to prevent illness.:eyeroll:
     
  3. ExScnDude

    ExScnDude Patron with Honors

    Hey now, don't be too hard on yourself. Many of us bought into the same bullshit. On the other hand, we at least got in there and tried to make a difference. There's much good intention and benevolent good works behind the activity of C/Sing and auditing. So pat yourself on the back for making an effort at being a good person.
     
  4. Div6

    Div6 Crusader



    I would say it is a hidden standard that "no one gets ill after a PTS Rundown".
    Given that current Scn Management IS SP, that doesn't surprise me. Cases change, confront levels change. You have to handle the being in front of you.

    As for the subject of "doing oneself in", this can take many forms and guises....over-eating, cheating on a mate, drugs, etc. I typically see it in people who have violated their own personal senses of ethics, and gotten into situations where their survival dynamic ihas been suppressed. Since, as beings, we cannot "really" die, the succumb dynamic comes into play.


    There are many variations on this theme. Some societies believe an honorable death is far better than a dishonorable one. The kamikazes are an example of that. Further in Japan, if confronted with a dishonorable death, some would commit sepuku, whereby they would slit open their abdomens and let their guts fall out on the floor. This is a slow and painful way to die, but it is considered that the pain atones for the dis-honor.

    Succumb postulates are common. They aren't often addressed. Ex-DN did, the L's do, FPRD can. But I don't think the level of confront in the CoS is currently high enough to effectively deal\heal, unfortunately.
     
  5. Bea Kiddo

    Bea Kiddo Crusader

    Sorry, but succumb postulates are not hanlded on FPRD. I dont beleive that for a second. Maybe on the other actions - like XDN. FPRD is crap. I dont even think that tech was properly figured out before it was put into use. Its supposed to address Psyche implanting on the WT? RIGHT. It never does/did. I have been audited, audited myself and C/Sed THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of hours of FPRD. Its junk. XDN would be cool. I think that is what the RPF program should consist of, not FPRD.
     
  6. Alan

    Alan Gold Meritorious Patron

    Succumb postulates used to be picked up in the "old" time Serv Fac handling. That was when we ran 100's to 1,000's of Serv Fac computations - before the "sickie grades" came into being.

    XDN is a wonderful R/D especially if you can run holographically - it takes very little to teach the pc how to run holographically.

    Full XDN will actually take you to most of the Axioms as basic on the chain.

    But nothing compares in power or effectiveness to the Games Matrix R/Ds. :)

    In the Games Matrix R/Ds - all the above are incorporated - plus hither-to unknown tech. :confused2:

    Alan
     
  7. Div6

    Div6 Crusader

    Er...have you published these rundowns yet? Or are they "Ranch only"?

    I understand you have a bit of a "tech backlog" as far as publishing goes....
     
  8. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    To become effect, I think one has to agree to become effect. There's always an area one isn't looking at which means lessened responsibility in that area.

    That's an overt because it's not good for the person. A 1d overt.

    But I don't mean that in a judgmental "you really suck" kind of way. Overts can be very understandable and just things the person is doing that are not good for him or her.

    Doing oneself in makes perfect sense to me but only when I remove the judgmental factor that I think churchies put in to it.

    It's like, ok, you went effect, you had some areas of lessened responsibility on the 1st D. That's no reason to judge you or be mean- in fact, it means that you would deserve compassion and understanding because there isn't one single person who hasn't been in the same boat. We are not perfect and to my way of thinking, blaming people and saying "you pulled it in" is a MUCH bigger overt than anything that person who got sick ever did.
     
  9. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    No reason one can't go PTS again.

    Well there are also the other possibilities of false PTSness. Out
    ethics is one.

    Then one must consider that being a public or staff in COS can be a PTS sit.

    The other thing is wrong indication, out lists due to dumb ethics handling.

    That ever get addressed by C/Ses?
     
  10. Div6

    Div6 Crusader

    Hear. Hear. In some HCOB's in the 60's, LRH says something to the effect of "and make sure you get the overt of making another wrong" .....

    What is a bank, really, except a blob of energy with false significances in it?
     
  11. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    In theory a succumb postulate is an evil purpose. Thus fodder for FPRD.

    I found this rundown absolutely wonderful, and got the EP of less self restraint. ( I think thats at least part of the EP) I'm not unique in finding this a very powerful and effective rundown.

    However I did just the basic form, by my own choice, and really gave it my all to do as best as I could. I had a problem of much persistent F/N's, going ext and missing sessions, until the C/S asked if I was witholding any wins. So I started writing success stories because I'd had many major ones. Primarily
    I came very close to recovering the ability to ext at will, ran pre mest,
    got rid of quite a few ser facs.

    However I did not do this style as a sec check, or in the conditions of the RPF.

    Its not specifically supposed to address psyche implants. Its more that its mentioned they could come up, as I recall. I have red vols if you want a quote. They sort of did come up, with me as a psyche! Good to get that run out!
     
  12. Div6

    Div6 Crusader

    I'd like to indicate that you have been over-run on sec-checking and FPRD for , oh, about 2000 hours....:angry: On ALL flows.

    What you were subjected to, and doing, is not Scientology....it is some off-beat kind of thing. This is why I say DM is SP. Look at his products.

    It was not always this way. LRH may have been manic, etc. But he got some good products.

    By their actions you shall know them.
     
  13. Bea Kiddo

    Bea Kiddo Crusader

    yes, those are all considered factors. But that was when tech was more important than ethics/politics. Aint the case no more.

    Being public or staff IS a PTS sit. Now I am no longer PTS. Actually, I have not been injured or ill once since being out. Almost 4 years. Knock on wood!!!
     
  14. Bea Kiddo

    Bea Kiddo Crusader

    I really didnt like that answer. But you are entitled to your opinion. (See honesty thread - I gotta be straight up with people, even if they are friends, even if they dont like it). Peace.
     
  15. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    Please say in detail why you didn't like my answer. I'd love to hear your viewpoint. Its a very interesting area. :) Go Bea! And peace to you. :)
     
  16. Bea Kiddo

    Bea Kiddo Crusader

    Well, I dont want to invalidate your wins. If you had good wins with FPRD, more power to you. Just personally I dont believe in that tech. Too much of a good thing maybe? can be bad? I can't stand FPRD, on any flow. I am done with it. I just dont think they ever got that tech fully figured out and it was released and implemented anyways. Something is not right with it.

    So its my own personal aversion to that tech. I HATE IT. I have 100 pc folders and 85% of them is FPRD.

    Its just my own personl aversion to it. I dont believe in it.
     
  17. Lulu Belle

    Lulu Belle Moonbat

    There were certain SO staff I knew that would periodically get very sick for a few days every few months.

    My ex-husband was one of them.

    They would get a very high fever.

    The only thing that would help is sleep.

    They would sleep for 3 days straight, then they would be fine.

    Personally, I always thought their sickness was a solution to a "no sleep" problem.
     
  18. Bea Kiddo

    Bea Kiddo Crusader

    BUSTED!!! (Me) :whistling:
     
  19. ExScnDude

    ExScnDude Patron with Honors

    Isn't it just as likely that after experiencing long working hours - your basic slave schedule, little sleep for weeks at a time, hostile psychotic executives, that our bodies' immune systems crashed resulting in poor health?

    Isn't it part of the trap where on the one side, we're supposed to buy into the idea that every little thing in the physical universe is a result of our own causation, while at the same time being at the business end of some egomaniac's latest dramatization concerning the relative worthlessness of our efforts?

    The sad fact is that a few days vacation with a valid excuse was at times better than the continued abuse. I've also taken that sickee vacation a time or two.

    Fact. Bodies get sick when they are stressed over long periods of time.

    Also, if illness is a consequence of PTSness, then even the mythical guy who was "never sick a day in his life" was PTS on his last day.
     
  20. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    Our experience is vastly different. I did this rundown self determindly cos I knew the self restraint could not be present life O/Ws. They'd all been run.

    You mentioned 5000 hours. And I believe mentioned most of your work as an auditor was this. I assume the majority was sec checks done FPRD style.
    Whole different ball game. Done in an environment of blame and not on your own determinism. An environment making you wrong. PTS city. Making you wrong and the COS right.

    Soul rape if you will.

    Your post screams protest. I am not suprised.

    So you survived. Validate yourself on that. Almost everyone here loves you.
    Its obvious to me, hope it is to you. :)