ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at

In defence of Hubbard

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by Balthasar, Sep 4, 2013.

  1. Claire Swazey

    Claire Swazey Spokeshole, fence sitter

    I think the most important thing (other than the subject matter of this thread and should Hub even be praised for anything and the very interesting segue into Operation Freakout and Paulette Cooper's book) is that we're getting along.

    I never post out of malice or ever have any intent to deceive, but, like anyone else here, I'm an idealistic, I have certain ideas and I worry. And I'm a fallible human being. There were things I felt I perceived in another contributor's post. He, being a nice guy, was willing to help me see where he was coming from. I appreciate that and I think he and I are going forward from there. If someone else has reservations about me or anything I've said here or anywhere else, well, it is what it is, you think what you think, and that's just how the chips fell.

    I didn't need a mom or dad. What I did need was to talk honestly with XB and he was nice enough and patient enough to oblige. I appreciate that and found it helpful.
  2. Panda Termint

    Panda Termint Cabal Of One

    Just dropped in to see if anyone had come up with a believable defence yet... nope! :biggrin:
  3. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    Since the Commander is on vacation and there's no one here properly defending LRH or speaking on his behalf I will take on his case.

    In response to all the allegations against Hubbard I plead: Not Guilty - by reason of Insanity! :whistling:
  4. MrNobody

    MrNobody Who needs merits?

    Yes, if this thread has shown one thing clearly, then it's the fact that Hubbard (and his teachings) are very close to 100% indefensible. Although the vast majority of ESMB members already know the stories about Operation Freakout and Paulette Cooper pretty well, it was important to post them here - if only one newbie or lurker sees this information here 1st, it was well worth it.

    Now about getting along with each other: Of course that's absolutely essential for the survival of any group, but "getting along with each other no matter what it costs", can destroy a group's purpose and/or the whole group itself just as quickly and easily as constant in-fighting.

    Therefore, on certain occasions, I just have two choices.

    1. Just turn around, walk away and never look back.
    2. Say something.

    "Ad hom" has been called on several discussions where no real ad hom could be seen anywhere. Many of these false call-outs were made by you, but you're absolutely not the only one who does this and it pisses me off every time I see it happen.

    I'm absolutely willing to let the occasional misinterpretation slide - nobody is perfect. But when I see a pattern emerge, one that misdirects (and sometimes even destroys) a discussion, I have to say something. Even if/when it just invalidates/demotivates honest contributors in a discussion, I have to say something.

    I'm not against you, I'm against these destructive patterns and I couldn't live happily with myself if I just ignored 'em if/when I see 'em.

    Well, I wouldn't say that your posts are intentionally and deliberately made out of maliciousness and destructiveness, but some of 'em do have such effects, IMO.

    Everybody here is human and therefore everybody is fallible at times, no doubt about that.

    If it was an issue just between you and him, you could have easily taken it up with him via PM, but you made the "ad hom" allegation publicly here on this board, right here in this discussion and in doing so, you made it everybody's business.

    That's fine for you and it makes me glad too, but what do this board and this discussion have to do with it?
  5. David C Gibbons

    David C Gibbons Ex-Scientology Peon

  6. lotus

    lotus stubborn rebel sheep!

    Thank's :thumbsup:
    It saves me 205 page of reading
    and bad humour :biggrin:
  7. Claire Swazey

    Claire Swazey Spokeshole, fence sitter

    I think maybe the reason I felt I perceived some good ideas in Scn and Dn, is that so much of it came from - or should I say was influenced by- Hubbard's readings of Buddhism, early psychoanalysis, and even magic. Which means, I guess, that the stuff that resonated most with me was either lifted completely from those other ologies or was a reworking of those.

    And these days I truly am into Buddhism and Shamanism.

    Do you see what I mean? I don't know that I would say that Hubbard never had any original ideas. He did. But a lot of those original ideas were pretty bad. Incident II. That Mars was once inhabited. The weeper. Lots of policy stuff.

    So do I think he never had any good ideas that were original and of his own devise? Oh, I think he had some. But the ones that truly resonated most with me are either straight out of other ologies or are reworkings of those things.

    You depict Scn as rather joyless. I have to agree. I felt pressured and oppressed when involved in CofS. Then I found it was that way in other locations. I did see people who were joyous, happy and lovely but I tend to think that they were that way despite Scn, not because of it- just as I think you're saying.

    I will say this- I thought some of the lower level stuff was kind of neat, particularly when I redid some of it in the FZ. But I think that there it was more that there wasn't anywhere near as much pressure on people to fit themselves as square pegs in round apertures. So their natural vivacity and happiness could shine through cuz no one was messing with them.

    I can't regret my time in the cult cuz I met my husband there and I had some fascinating life lessons. But that was not the same for everyone and I know very well that the cult ruined lives.
  8. There is a way to defend Hubbard.

    But first one has to change the presuppositions of those who disagree with Hubbard.

    And that primary presupposition is that truth should be the arbiter of what is right and what is wrong.

    But if one could convince people that force should the arbiter of what is right or wrong, then Hubbard would be considered differently.

    I'm not be facetious here; there have been times and cultures where might makes right.

    These cultures are fascist ones, but they do come into existence from time to time.

    And before they come into existence the basic values of the culture must first change from truth to force.

    And what makes force take precedent over truth is usually times of danger.

    If Hubbard had Josef Goebbels as his PR man, in the right place at the right time, Hubbard would be viewed differently.

    I can't think of the historian who said the following, and I am paraphrasing it, but the idea is that if you have rule by a monarch, the value you need to inculcate into society is honor.

    And if you want to rule by democracy the value you have to inculcate into society is trust.

    But if you want to rule by fascism, the value you have to inculcate into society is fear.

    Right now, it seems to me, that in American society there is always efforts to inculcate fear into the values of society.

    If that should ever succeed, then Hubbard may look like a viable option to follow.

    I am not worried about the Church of Scientology expanding into western society now a days because fear is generally in decline.

    But should that change in the future, and fear spreads in western society as it did in the 1930s, then there will be much to say in favor of Hubbard and his way of running things.

    Just a thought.

    The Anabaptist Jacques
  9. Osiris

    Osiris Patron with Honors

    The Techniques that Hubbard Ruled by have been exposed my modern Technology (namely the Internet & Video & Audio & Print reporting Media) & modern Views have resulted

    His Lies have been exposed, & lies no longer work once they have been disproved .....
  10. I can think of many, many lies that have been exposed yet still work.

    Just look at American foreign policy.

    The Anabaptist Jacques
  11. Osiris

    Osiris Patron with Honors

    I personally start to distrust people & withdraw my support for people who I see are lieing,

    But this was Probably Hubbards only OT ability that worked really well, to Lie & Intimidate & abuse usually got him immediate results ...... but how will it be viewed over the longer term ?

    When you return
    everything will be
    as you wish,
    leaves, in falling
    will become birds,
    ants will march
    in indistinguishable ranks,
    this house will be
    a shell, room melting
    into room, the stairs
    going from basement
    to attic, to basement
    again never stepping down,
    and you will sit
    at your study desk
    and draw yourself in.

    Melissa McAllister
  13. Lone Star

    Lone Star Crusader

    Hey Bird!

    How 'bout them BoSox?
  14. as should be expected two original AL teams are producing Grrrr...EAT!!! baseball

    four out of five games decided by one run including a pair of classic 1-0 thrillers an mindblower comeback on an 8th inning gand slam by... who else?


    no red sox postseason series has ever ended in six games and they need to break precedent as game seven repeats the lackey/verlander matchup and the smart money gets bet on detroit
  15. he's baaaaa...ack
  16. of course those who love the game, any game, love it when smart money loses and heart money wins

    but red sox nation wants to win in six

    bucholz! bucholz! bucholz!

    go sox!!!
  17. Out-Ethics

    Out-Ethics Patron Meritorious

    Well Commander I'm a Tiger fan. It has been a good series and yes Big Pappy broke my heart in his GS in game 2. I'm hoping for a game 7 and of course the Tigers pulling it out.
  18. big papi raised his index finger in gratitude to big pappy when he reached home plate

    may the better team win most honorable opponent...
  19. and so they did...

    tigers were clearly outplayed in the cleats and leather game
  20. Winston Smith

    Winston Smith Flunked Scientology

    It appears the Commander reappeared.