Is consciousness expansion dead?

[Mimsey Borogrove]

First of all, I don't see why there should automatically be a link between a person as a spiritual being and this phenomenon of 'exteriorisation/interiorisation'. You use this terminology, but what does interiorisation mean exactly apart from the blindingly obvious 'being inside something?' Do you become an iron atom like all the other iron atoms in the stapler? It's all too vague and 'airy-fairy' mate.

I can understand that - isn't the spiritual being a nonmaterial entity? Why, if it can enter a body and depart it, at birth and death, and for some, at other times, would it be limited to live objects?

Here's something similar:
Animism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For other uses, see Animism (disambiguation).
Animism (from Latin anima, "breath, spirit, life")[1][2] is the religious belief that objects, places and creatures all possess a distinct spiritual essence.[3][4][5][6] Potentially, animism perceives all things—animals, plants, rocks, rivers, weather systems, human handiwork and perhaps even words—as animated and alive. Animism is the world's oldest religion, "Animism predates any form of organized religion and is said to contain the oldest spiritual and supernatural perspective in the world. It dates back to the Paleolithic Age, to a time when... humans roamed the plains hunting and gathering, and communing with the Spirit of Nature."[7]
Animism is used in the anthropology of religion as a term for the belief system of many indigenous peoples,[8] especially in contrast to the relatively more recent development of organised religions.[9] Although each culture has its own different mythologies and rituals, "animism" is said to describe the most common, foundational thread of indigenous peoples' "spiritual" or "supernatural" perspectives. The animistic perspective is so widely held and inherent to most indigenous peoples that they often do not even have a word in their languages that corresponds to "animism" (or even "religion");[10] the term is an anthropological construct.

More at link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism

Mimsey

 

[strativarius]

I can understand that - isn't the spiritual being a nonmaterial entity? Why, if it can enter a body and depart it, would it be limited to live objects?

Mimsey

Yes, but there's nothing concrete here is there? Who the fuck knows what a spiritual being is and whether it's a nonmaterial entity or not? Didn't your mentor Hubbard say a thetan weighed an ounce or two? Who knows if it can enter a body or depart it? You state these things as though they were facts, but in truth you are only speculating (or in the case of the stapler - hallucinating IMO), and in speculation the sky's the limit.

 

[Veda]

If I recall correctly....Ingo Swann said in an Advance Mag article of which he was on the Cover....that he got his OT abilities from doing the SHSBC....

Anyway, That SRI stuff kinda got me into the Cult...back in the 1970's

I don't think he ever did the SHSBC. It's hard to imagine him sitting through the "wall of tapes." Can you locate the issue of Advance! magazine with him on the cover? I've never seen it.

He did credit the Lower Grades for having assisted him in recovering from whatever unpleasantness occurred to him while he was serving in the military as a young man which resulted, he said, in losing the abilities he had as a child.

Ingo Swann, who I knew, didn't like to be identified as a Scientologists but, when around Scientologists, was diplomatic and played along. I think, at times, he enjoyed being a "celebrity" and flitting around at Scientology's Celebrity Center.

One could say he was the ultimate "panty waisted dilettante," but was tolerated by Scientology because it was thought that his work with SRI (Stanford Research Institute) would "validate" Scientology.

At the same time, it seems to have irritated Hubbard, privately, who appears to have been asked why he wasn't using people like Ingo Swann for the spying being done by the Guardian's Office. In other words, why was Scientology, with its "OTs," not using those "OTs" for "psychic spying," instead of picking locks, breaking into offices, and sneaking around file cabinets?

Hubbard's response, in the confidential 1973 Intelligence Its Role was to denounce and ridicule, essentially as hocus pocus, all things psychical, while emphasizing the effectiveness of his down-to-earth Scientology Intelligence Tech, which, he emphasized, was far superior to any other.

It seems that, when not making public pronouncements, Hubbard didn't believe in his own OT levels as a means to producing actual "OT" abilities.

 

[Mimsey Borogrove]

Yes, but there's nothing concrete here is there? Who the fuck knows what a spiritual being is and whether it's a nonmaterial entity or not? Didn't your mentor Hubbard say a thetan weighed an ounce or two? Who knows if it can enter a body or depart it? You state these things as though they were facts, but in truth you are only speculating (or in the case of the stapler - hallucinating IMO), and in speculation the sky's the limit.

All I am saying is that it happened - it was a subjective experience on my part - whether you choose to believe it or not is up to you.

I was not taking drugs, I hadn't been drinking, I have no reason to believe it was either imagination or hallucination. It just simply happened - it took less than a second.

I have seen this written before - exteriorization ( and many esp occurances) does not result from efforting to do it. It is more spontaneous. That's Ingo's feelings as well. "I told Osis that I believed OOB to consist only of spontaneous factors, and usually within some kind of unusual situation, and that I did not know how to do it."

We, HH and I, chased each other around this pole before - his position being if you can't produce it at will, it's bunkum, and my position is it does not happen on command. That it can't be done on command does not make it invalid.

Edit: his horseshit about the thetan weighing an ounce is nonsense. How can non-material mental pictures, and a non-material being weigh anything? As usual, he can't keep his lies tech straight.

Mimsey

 

[strativarius]

All I am saying is that it happened - it was a subjective experience on my part - whether you choose to believe it or not is up to you.

I was not taking drugs, I hadn't been drinking, I have no reason to believe it was either imagination or hallucination. It just simply happened - it took less than a second.

I have seen this written before - exteriorization ( and many esp occurances) does not result from efforting to do it. It is more spontaneous. That's Ingo's feelings as well. "I told Osis that I believed OOB to consist only of spontaneous factors, and usually within some kind of unusual situation, and that I did not know how to do it."

We, HH and I, chased each other around this pole before - his position being if you can't produce it at will, it's bunkum, and my position is it does not happen on command. That it can't be done on command does not make it invalid.

Mimsey

I believe that you believe that's what happened. I don't believe that is what actually happened.The reason you get chased around the pole is that you deal in speculation, hearsay, anecdotal evidence, wishful thinking and blind faith. Not enough to convince me I'm afraid, sorry.

 

[Mimsey Borogrove]

You could be right - I could have been fooling myself. I don't disagree that's a possibility, but my recall of the occurrence is that it's too real. Too unexpected. I simply wondered what it would be like to be a stapler, the next instant I was in it and knew what it was like. Then I was back sitting in my chair.


It takes longer to describe it than it took to do it.
Mimsey

 

[Mimsey Borogrove]

Strati - let me ask you this - have you ever in your life had an esp experience of any kind? If so, was it a conscious occurrence as a result of thinking about it, or spontaneous? Most of my experiences have been the latter. Do others that post here find the same sort of experience?

Mmsey

 

[George Layton]

Only among some ex-Scientologists . . . there are also many exies still pursuing their original purpose that led them into Scientology. Of course, many keep under wraps . . . and youse might be surprised just who among the anti-cult and the anti-Cof$ community that have maintained their search.

But the search for answers regarding our true spiritual awarenesses, powers, capacities, abilities and true nature is alive and very, very well!

The likes of Rupert Sheldrake and his gang of fellow researchers world-wide attests to that . . . also there is a very healthy online and alternative media community alive and well doing their thing expanding "consciousness."

See for example:

Collective Evolution - Conscious Media
https://www.collective-evolution.com/
Creating change through transforming consciousness. Learn more about CE's Mission!

Some are still searching and some are pointing out the light at the end of the tunnel claiming that it is NOT the 905 from Venus.

 

[George Layton]

I did not say there was such a thing as body thetans. I said: " Let's not get into if they actually exist or not or are mis-labeled by Hubbard and are something else entirely." The solo auditor believes they are real. So he attempts to communicate with whatever they are or are not via telepathy and so it amounts to daily practice of telepathy.

Mimsey

If hubbard mislabeled BT's and they are something else entirely couldn't a person misunderstand their experience, believing it one thing while it was something else entirely?

 

[George Layton]

"To wit, there are numerous examples of Scientologists finding a parking space where none existed before."

I need a $cientologist to go with me when I go to wallmart etc next month. Do they rent themselves out or are they for sale only?

For a nominal fee some of them will sit at home and tell you where to find one telepathically.

 

[strativarius]

Strati - let me ask you this - have you ever in your life had an esp experience of any kind? If so, was it a conscious occurrence as a result of thinking about it, or spontaneous? Most of my experiences have been the latter. Do others that post here find the same sort of experience?

Mmsey

Yes, a couple of times around the beginning of the seventies I experienced what I believe is termed a 'religious experience'. No drugs were involved but I can only think of clichés to describe how I felt, stuff like ' a feeling of oneness with the universe', a blissfully ecstatic emotional state, a lightness of being which lasted for three or four days before I came down to Earth again.

This ensued following a profound emotional upheaval in my life at the time, and these days it's plain to me that a lot of phenethylamine type chemicals were rushing around my brain. Be that as it may, it was unforgettable and I've never experienced anything like it since.

 

[George Layton]

Wha? I shouldn't believe in matter energy, space and time? Perhaps you subscribe to the Holographic universe theory? That's the problem - I am merely a part of your illusion of reality - maybe I am an outside BT in your self created world...

A rose by in any other language is still a rose. ;p

Mimsey

I disagree that a rose in any other language is still a rose. In the language hubbar taught a rose is a Cadillac. You paid for a Cadillac and he gave you a rose. But hell when you've paid the price of a Cadillac for a rose you may as well keep trying to drive it.

 

[Leland]

Hi Veda,

Probably you are right and it wasn't an Advance Mag? Maybe a Celeb Mag?

Anyway this was around the late 1970's so doubt I could dig up a copy....

But I remember as it was one of the reasons I signed onto the BC.

 

[F.Bullbait]

 

[pineapple]

I don't think he ever did the SHSBC. It's hard to imagine him sitting through the "wall of tapes." Can you locate the issue of Advance! magazine with him on the cover? I've never seen it.

This doesn't have the cover, but here's a 1973 Advance interview with Ingo Swann that says he's a Class VI auditor and did the SHSBC in 1969.

http://www.wiseoldgoat.com/papers-scientology/popup-windows/scn_advance21-7310_iv_ingo_swann.html

I thought I remembered he was. It impressed me at the time since few celebs get highly trained.

 

[Veda]

This doesn't have the cover, but here's a 1973 Advance interview with Ingo Swann that says he's a Class VI auditor and did the SHSBC in 1969.

http://www.wiseoldgoat.com/papers-scientology/popup-windows/scn_advance21-7310_iv_ingo_swann.html

I thought I remembered he was. It impressed me at the time since few celebs get highly trained.

Thanks for that.

Yes, I remember reading that interview years ago.

Still seems strange that Ingo Swann would endure sittting through the Class VI course, but we have no choice but to take his word for it.

 

[Mimsey Borogrove]

I can understand the back off - it was much the same prior to the invention of the radio, telegraph, telephone - no one would believe you could communicate with another out of earshot, or worse yet, out of sight.

Yet, here we are chatting with people all over the globe.

Mimsey

 

[Mimsey Borogrove]

Thanks for that.

Yes, I remember reading that interview years ago.

Still seems strange that Ingo Swann would endure sittting through the Class VI course, but we have no choice but to take his word for it.

The course had a shorter checksheet then - it was two parts the first being 0-4 ( kind of an expanded version of the current 0-4 checksheet) and the r6-ew section. It still had tons of tapes, but in the reel to reel days you could put paper on the capstan to speed them up. Which org did he do the course at? I don't recall him at asho on temple. I did that version of the checksheet there on temple starting 1971.

Mimsey

 

[guanoloco]

I don't think he ever did the SHSBC. It's hard to imagine him sitting through the "wall of tapes." Can you locate the issue of Advance! magazine with him on the cover? I've never seen it.

He did credit the Lower Grades for having assisted him in recovering from whatever unpleasantness occurred to him while he was serving in the military as a young man which resulted, he said, in losing the abilities he had as a child.

Ingo Swann, who I knew, didn't like to be identified as a Scientologists but, when around Scientologists, was diplomatic and played along. I think, at times, he enjoyed being a "celebrity" and flitting around at Scientology's Celebrity Center.

One could say he was the ultimate "panty waisted dilettante," but was tolerated by Scientology because it was thought that his work with SRI (Stanford Research Institute) would "validate" Scientology.

At the same time, it seems to have irritated Hubbard, privately, who appears to have been asked why he wasn't using people like Ingo Swann for the spying being done by the Guardian's Office. In other words, why was Scientology, with its "OTs," not using those "OTs" for "psychic spying," instead of picking locks, breaking into offices, and sneaking around file cabinets?

Hubbard's response, in the confidential 1973 Intelligence Its Role was to denounce and ridicule, essentially as hocus pocus, all things psychical, while emphasizing the effectiveness of his down-to-earth Scientology Intelligence Tech, which, he emphasized, was far superior to any other.

It seems that, when not making public pronouncements, Hubbard didn't believe in his own OT levels as a means to producing actual "OT" abilities.

Exactly.

When the Berlin Wall came down all the gushing was about the OT 7s and 8s postulating and solo auditing the other dynamics...blah...blah.

But when the NBSRAW stat needed to be upped that meant going door-to-door knocking instead of postulating and solo auditing.

Funny how that works.

 

[TomKat]

His Scientology tainted consciousness expansion?

well out there in the wild and wooly new age, the main people doing anything more effective than color or aroma therapy in the 80s and 90s tended to be ex-scientologists or shamanic practitioners. So I would say it has certainly had a dominant effect on how "consciousness expansion" is practiced, and nowadays there are lots of people processing various things in various ways as a distant outgrowth of the mid-80s splinter movement. If that qualifies as tainting, then, yes.