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Is Scientology a science?

Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by Tom_Booth, Jun 18, 2014.

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  1. Claire Swazey

    Claire Swazey Spokeshole, fence sitter

    Tom appears to be a real person and not a made up entity, judging by his Facebook page.
     
  2. Claire Swazey

    Claire Swazey Spokeshole, fence sitter

    What are they there for?

    Lots of people come here to discuss Scn. They don't all have the same perspectives or opinions. Even if not one single indie, FZer, whatever came here- you still would get a range of varying opinions and stances.

    Carmie, as I mentioned, had been on this board for years. If you wanted to find a hidebound tech spouting non CofS Scn'ist, you'd have to pass Carmie and keep going a very looong way. He didn't see anything wrong with psych drugs, other practices, criticism of Hubbard, any of it. I don't think I ever saw him proselytize. In fact, a lot of his posts here weren't even about Scn. Like most of us, he chatted a lot about ships and shoes and sealing wax and cabbages and kings. If he was sent here to handle critics, he sure was doing one fuck of an awful job.

    Unless, of course, handle means to let others be themselves and to respect those differences. At that, he excelled.

    As far as Tom goes, he kind of strikes me as someone with a foot out the door (of CofS) already. I speculate that if that's true, then as time goes on, he will question and ditch more and more of the Hubbardite mindset and belief system.
     
  3. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

    ..


    So, Tom really is Aleister Crowley?

    Good to know.

    I had my doubts before, but now that you vouched for him, that's good enough for me.
     
  4. Cat Daddy

    Cat Daddy Silver Meritorious Patron

    Not really:

     
  5. Cat Daddy

    Cat Daddy Silver Meritorious Patron

    [video=youtube;B4fy2N6pn7Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4fy2N6pn7Y[/video]
     
  6. ARRRRGGGG!!! (Not at you, Bully!:) )
    It's ANOTHER teachable moment!!! :clever: (Sweetness cannot hold herself back on this one!) :duh:

    Okay...that's Crowley's squirreled version of the original stricture* meant to guide us in our behavior and practice...which is:

    "And so it HARM NONE...do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law."

    Obviously, if one leaves out the beginning of the statement, it totally reverses the meaning and intent of the original!!!

    Which I think was Crowley's intention! :yes:

    Can we please, PLEASE be accurate about this here!!! :thumbsup: :happydance: :begging:

    *stric·ture noun \ˈstrik-chər\
    : a law or rule that limits or controls something...
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2014
  7. And on the subject of Science, I offer this talk in honor of my Dad...who was a lifelong Academic, a Scientist doing both Research, running a laboratory, and a classroom instructor working directly with students. :happydance:

    "Insightful ignorance drives science. Knowing lots of facts doesn’t make you a scientist, you also need to ask good questions. Scientists use facts to ask better questions, insightful questions, questions that probe at the ignorance and expand the frontier of what’s known. Strangely, science is not taught as this exciting, endless pursuit of questions. Rather, it is delivered as lecture-sized bundles of facts that must be memorized to pass the test and have little relevance afterwards. Facts should not be simply accumulated, they should be used to build the next round of questions.

    Stuart Firestein is a neuroscience professor at Columbia University. For the past seven years, he has been teaching a course called Ignorance, where he invites scientists to talk to his students for a couple of hours about the state of their ignorance: what they didn’t know a few years ago and know now, what they would still like to know, why it is important to know it, and how they plan to find out."

    http://www.ted.com/talks/stuart_firestein_the_pursuit_of_ignorance
     
  8. F.Bullbait

    F.Bullbait Oh, a wise guy,eh?

    Thanks Sweety, as it is, I get enough ARRRRGGGG!!! from my current wife.:grouch:
     
  9. Purple Rain

    Purple Rain Crusader

    A bit of ARRRRGGGG!!! is healthy! It keeps you adaptable, flexible, and good at ducking!
     
  10. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    :) Isn't that from Wicca, and from the 1960s?

    It's debatable what the antecedent to the Wicca saying is. There were similar sentiments expressed in times past by others; however, if there's an antecedent to Crowley's 1904 'Do What Thou Wilt', it would be the words originating with Francois Rabelais'.

    [​IMG]
    The original Thelemite, who wrote, in 1534:

    "Do what thou wilt."

    "Because men that are free, well born, well bred, and conversant in honest companies have naturally an instinct and spur that prompteth them into virtuous actions, and withdraws them from vice, which is called honor..."


    Crowley took that and darkened it considerably.
     
  11. Yes, it is widely publicized in Wiccan circles...but it predates "Wicca".

    Quoting a much earlier post by myself from the thread:

    "Re: All this is interesting but...
    Quote Originally Posted by Lermanet_com View Post
    ~snip~

    Arnie wrote: "(Hope this helps, and to Sweetness&Light, who wanted to know more, are you sure you DID? After all these years digging in this trash pile I do not like some of the lessons I have had to learn...)" I replied: "I can see how you would feel this way about the subject!"

    Note1: In the Huna religion of the old hawaiians there is a description of the techniques used to kill another person by intent...There is ONE amazing detail about the mental attack used... it will NOT work unless the target has guilt. Amongst the Hawaiians, a person who felt no guilt was not vulnerable to such an attack by a Kahuna. The old Hawaiians had only two rules for happy living, 1) Never steal or damage another person's possessions and 2) Never hurt another persons FEELINGS.
    Yes, Arnie...it does help, and I am o.k. with learning more about the (REALLY) dark side and true origins of Scientology! Thank you. I never had to LIVE it like you did.

    Can I just take a moment here to add that Aleister Crowley (seen below doing TR 0 ~ note how the TRs start with 0 and not 1, another magickal influence... ) really SQUIRRELED THE TECH when he wrote that "This is the whole of the law: Do what thou wilt". Do whatever the hell you want to do in life, (no matter who it hurts) is the kind of ruthless self-determinism that you "get" when you "Get IT" in EST, which was an offshoot of Scientology. I think Crowley's postulate of this as a "rule to live by" as a wannabe magus is the seminal thought behind Ron's creation of Scientology. I think Ron just copied and followed his hero...

    "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" is an exact quote from Crowley's best known and still read work "The Book of the Law" published in 1904. It wasn't even an original thought with him...from Wikipedia:

    "This famous statement derives from several historic precedents, including that of François Rabelais in describing the rule of his Abbey of Thélème in Gargantua and Pantagruel: Fait ce que vouldras (Do what thou wilt), which was later used by the Hellfire Club established by Sir Francis Dashwood. It is also similar to the pagan proverb: An ye harm none, do what thou wilt; but the oldest known statement of a similar idea is by St. Augustine of Hippo: Love, and do what thou wilt."

    Good old St. Augustine of Hippo (Bishop, Confessor, Doctor of the Church... respected by Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican and Lutheran traditions alike) lived from 354 to 430, A.D.

    The important point that I want to make about this is that Crowley's "The whole of the Law is 'Do what thou wilt'" is squirreled from, and morally, ethically and spiritually diametrically opposed to the spirit of the ancient pagan magical rede, which pre-dates Christianity and so, St. Augustine, from which this all comes, "and so it harm none, do what thou wilt..." St. Augustine's version is a slight reworking with a Christly "love one another" take on it.

    That to me is very similar to the golden rule found in various ancient cultural traditions and teachings, same meaning and import. I think it's a key to success in spiritual practice, protection, and advancement for us as individuals and for our moral and social evolution as a species.

    The core concept of Ron's Scientology creation opposes that.

    The ruthless self determinism of Crowley's "This is the whole of the law, do what thou wilt" (invalidating all other religious and social systems of belief, moral values and social practice that promote loving kindness, and first do no harm to others kinds of values) is the core essence and foundational platform of Scientology. We see that being played out and demonstrated for us both historically while Ron was alive, and in real life right now by actions and abuses in the so-called "Church of Scientology" by it's current leadership.

    The whole COS enterprise is rotten to the core and worse than worthless, harmful spiritually to people, because of this.
    Last edited by SweetnessandLight; 8th November 2011 at 01:39 PM."

    I prefer the term Pagan when referring to the ancient European earth oriented per-Christian religions..."Wiccan and Witchcraft" tend to all come from the Gardnarian tradition, yes, made popular here in the 60's.

    Adriana Porter allegedly wrote it in a poem published in 1910, according to her grandaughter who re-published in the 70's. I think we can safely say it was a common pagan saying, passed on by word of mouth during training in "the Craft", well before Crowley "squirreled" it from Rabelais , changing it's intent and meaning from the alleged original saying. Hard to pin it's origin down exactly when we are dealing with oral traditions here...

    As an aside...I enjoyed this essay on the "Rede" by Judy Harrow: :thumbsup:

    From: http://www.realmagick.com/5126/exegesis-on-the-wiccan-rede/

    "I'd like to try doing some exegesis on an essential statement of the Craft way of life. Every religion has some sort of ethic, some guideline for what it means to live in accordance with this particular mythos, this worldview. Ours, called the Wiccan Rede, is one of the most elegant statements I've heard of the principle of situational ethics. Rather than placing the power and duty to decide about behavior with teachers or rulebooks, the Rede places it exactly where it belongs, with the actor.

    Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill: AN IT HARM NONE, DO WHAT YOU WILL.

    I'd like to start with the second phrase first, and to take it almost word by word.

    Do what YOU will. This is the challenge to self-direction, to figure out what we want, and not what somebody else wants for us or from us. All of us are subject to tremendous role expectations and pressures, coming from our families, our employers, our friends, society in general. It's easy to just be molded, deceptively easy to become a compulsive rebel and reflexively do the opposite of whatever "they" seem to want. Living by the Rede means accepting the responsibility to assess the results of our actions and to choose when we will obey, confront or evade the rules.

    Do what you WILL. This is the challenge to introspection, to know what we really want beyond the whim of the moment. The classic example is that of the student who chooses to study for an exam rather than go to a party, because what she really wants is to be a doctor. Again, balance is needed. Always going to the library rather than the movies is the road to burnout, not the road to a Nobel. What's more, there are other values in life, such as sensuality, intimacy, spirituality, that get ignored in a compulsively long-term orientation. So, our responsibility is not to mechanically follow some rule like "always choose to defer gratification in your own long-term self interest," but to really listen within, and to really choose, each time.

    DO what you will. This is the challenge to action. Don't wait for Prince Charming or the revolution. Don't blame your mother or the system. Make a realistic plan that includes all your assets. Be sure to include magic, both the deeper insights and wisdoms of divination and the focusing of will and energy that comes from active workings. Then take the first steps right now. But, beware of thoughtless action, which is equally dangerous. For example, daydreaming is needed, to envision a goal, to project the results of actions, to check progress against goals, sometimes to revise goals. Thinking and planning are necessary parts of personal progress. Action and thought are complementary; neither can replace the other.

    When you really look at it, word by word, it sounds like a subtle and profound guide for life, does it not? Is it complete? Shall "do what you will" in fact be "the whole of the law" for us? I think not. The second phrase of the Rede discusses the individual out of context. Taken by itself, "DO WHAT YOU WILL" would produce a nastily competitive society, a "war of each against all" more bitter than what we now endure. That is, it would if it were possible. Happily, it's just plain not.

    Pagan myth and modern biology alike teach us that our Earth is one interconnected living sphere, a whole system in which the actions of each affect all (and this is emphatically not limited to humankind) through intrinsic, organic feedback paths. As our technology amplifies the effects of our individual actions, it becomes increasingly critical to understand that these actions have consequences beyond the individual; consequences that, by the very nature of things, come back to the individual as well. Cooperation, once "merely" an ethical ideal, has become a survival imperative. Life is relational, contextual. Exclusive focus on the individual Will is a lie and a deathtrap.

    The qualifying "AN IT HARM NONE," draws a Circle around the individual Will and places each of us firmly within the dual contexts of the human community and the complex life-form that is Mother Gaia. The first phrase of the Rede directs us to be aware of results of our actions projected not only in time, as long-term personal outcomes, but in space - to consider how actions may effect our families, co-workers, community, and the life of the Earth as a whole, and to take those projections into account in our decisions.

    But, like the rest of the Rede, "an it harm none" cannot be followed unthinkingly. It is simply impossible for creatures who eat to harm none. Any refusal to decide or act for fear of harming someone is also a decision and an action, and will create results of some kind. When you consider that "none" also includes ourselves, it becomes clear that what we have here is a goal and an ideal, not a rule.

    The Craft, assuming ethical adulthood, offers us no rote rules. We will always be working on incomplete knowledge. We will sometimes just plain make mistakes. Life itself, and life-affirming religion, still demands that we learn, decide, act, and accept the results."
     
  12. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    :) Thanks for the additional background.

    Rabelais is described as the first Thelemite. If Crowley is to be believed, Rabelais was the inspiration for his 'Do What Thou Wilt'.

    The placing of conditions, such as "Do no harm" or "Love one another," violates the spirit of Rabelais' simple, "Do What Thou Wilt," which is based, essentially, on the idea that Man is basically good.

    As mentioned, Crowley, added his own darker twist to this.
     
  13. Veda,

    You and Sweeteness and maybe some others ought to get together to write a book on this aspect of Hubbard and even on the whole history of this dark area.

    Something like the dark roots of Scientology.

    It would be a great service to people and give a more comprehensive picture.

    The Anabaptist Jacques
     
  14. Aw...TAJ! :blush:

    It's a good suggestion for a book topic! :thumbsup:

    Love you! :flowers2: :love2:
     
  15. Tom_Booth

    Tom_Booth Patron with Honors

    How so Veda ?

    Reading Crowley's own analysis of "Do what thou wilt" I can't characterize it as anything less than sublime.
     
  16. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    [​IMG]
    Self portrait by Aleister Crowley


    [​IMG]
    Blood red: The same color as the Tech Volumes.


    From the Introduction of 'The Book of the Law':

    III

    THE LAW OF THELEMA

    This Book lays down a simple Code of Conduct.

    "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law."



    From the main text of 'The Book of the Law':

    We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit; let them die in their misery. For they feel not. Compassion is the vice of Kings: stamp down the wretched and the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world...

    The Kings of Earth shall be the Kings forever: the slaves shall serve.

    Them that seek to entrap thee, to overthrow thee, them attack without pity or quarter; and destroy them utterly.
     
  17. Tom_Booth

    Tom_Booth Patron with Honors

    I dare say, your citations are selective and their applicability questionable.

    But then, you could say the same about mine I suppose.

    Generally though, The Book of the Law was dictated to not written by Crowley (supposedly).

    How Crowley interpreted "Do what thou wilt" is I think a question different from what the Book of the Law says verbatim or as interpreted by you or me.
     
  18. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

    Originally Posted by Veda

    From the Introduction of 'The Book of the Law':



    A few posts ago you called Crowley's "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" sublime, in your words.

    A good number of posts before that you also claimed to be the reincarnation of Aleister Crowley.

    You also claimed that you made a "deal" with Hubbard back in the 1940s (before Scientology) that you would take over Scientology in your next life after Hubbard died.

    And then you signed up to be a janitor on staff in Harlem org, even though you are not a Scientologist.

    Can you see a pattern of being really nuts yet? LOL. No? Okay, let's continue. . .

    Crowley (you) wrote how to handle enemies with: "...them attack without pity or quarter; and destroy them utterly."

    Your alleged erstwhile business partner (L. Ron Hubbard) likewise wrote how to handle enemies with: "Never defend, always attack." And also: "If possible ruin him utterly." And also: "May be tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed."

    Are you seeing any pattern yet? No? Let me help you some more. . .

    Think of it like a triangle. Kinda like the ARC triangle but better.

    The ART triangle. Aleister, Ron & Tom.

    Art as in Con Artist. But I wouldn't accuse you of being a con artist like Crowley and Hubbard.

    Because you don't try to cheat others out of their money like Hubbard/Crowley.

    You just try to cheat others out of their time and common sense, which is why you are are a HQTA (Hubbard Qualified Troll Artist). Yayy!

    Congratulations, I guess. The certificate is in the mail.
     
  19. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Yes, yes, we know that, according to Crowley, The Book of the Law was dictated to him by Aiwass, etc. Being a student of Crowley, or - excuse me - being Crowley, you would be familiar with his commentary on 'The Book of the Law', such as,


    From 'The Book of the Law':

    Mercy be off: damn them who pity! Kill and torture; spare not; be upon them!


    Commentary:

    An end to the humanitarian mawkishness which is destroying the human race by the deliberate artificial protection of the unfit...

    What has been the net result of our fine 'Christian' phrases? In the good old days there was some sort of natural selection; brains and stamina were necessary to survival. The race, as such, consequently improved. But we thought we knew, oh! so much better, and we had 'Christ's law' and other slush, so the unfit crowded and contaminated the fit...

    Should we not rather breed humanity for quality by killing off any tainted stock? And exterminating the vermin who infect it...

    .
    .
    .
    .
    .



    Crowley - ahem, I mean you - darkened Rabelais' 'Do What Thou Wilt'.

    Deal with it.
     
  20. lotus

    lotus stubborn rebel sheep!

    Was a true master at golden mean rule

    Mastered the physical body divine proportions as well as the spiritual divine proportions... :blush:

    Funny- his huge brain with a tiny mouth
    the opposite of the brain-mouth of the thetan in my mirror!
    I may give a try to black magic though!
    :biggrin:
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2014