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Is Scientology a science?

Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by Tom_Booth, Jun 18, 2014.

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  1. guanoloco

    guanoloco As-Wased

    "...dispose of them without sorrow" and something about H,E & R being a bunch of Marcab PR from the original OT VIII issue.

    One can easily see the influence.
  2. "One can easily see the influence."

    Thank God somebody else clearly sees it, also! :thumbsup: :clap: :happydance:


    Can I get an "AMEN" from the Choir??? :biggrin:
  3. lotus

    lotus stubborn rebel sheep!

    Amen Sister
    You are not alone
    Amen Sister!


  4. Claire Swazey

    Claire Swazey Spokeshole, fence sitter

    I saw a documentary re Crowkey. Fascinating stuff. Where he reminds me of Hubbard is primarily the selfishness.
  5. Tom_Booth

    Tom_Booth Patron with Honors

    First of all, The stuff you are quoting doesn't seem to relate to "Do What thou wilt".

    Crowley's commentary or speculations or questions to the reader about "Natural Selection" and the like have no relationship to "Do what thou wilt" as far as I can see.

    Looks like a "straw man" argument to me. An entirely different issue from Do what thou wilt.
  6. Veda

    Veda Sponsor


    I stated that Crowley darkened 'Do what thou wilt'.

    What I quoted was from 'The Book of the Law' and from Crowley's commentary on 'The Book of the Law'.

    The topic is not the "Do what thou wilt' of Rabelais; the topic is the 'Do what thou wilt' of Aleister Crowley, self described 'Beast 666'.

    Self portrait by Aleister Crowley

    Blood red: The same color as the Tech Volumes.

    From the Introduction of 'The Book of the Law':



    This Book lays down a simple Code of Conduct.

    "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law."

    From the main text of 'The Book of the Law':

    We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit; let them die in their misery. For they feel not. Compassion is the vice of Kings: stamp down the wretched and the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world...

    The Kings of Earth shall be the Kings forever: the slaves shall serve.

    Them that seek to entrap thee, to overthrow thee, them attack without pity or quarter; and destroy them utterly.


    From Crowley's, commentary on 'The Book of the Law',

    From 'The Book of the Law':

    Mercy be off: damn them who pity! Kill and torture; spare not; be upon them!


    An end to the humanitarian mawkishness which is destroying the human race by the deliberate artificial protection of the unfit...

    What has been the net result of our fine 'Christian' phrases? In the good old days there was some sort of natural selection; brains and stamina were necessary to survival. The race, as such, consequently improved. But we thought we knew, oh! so much better, and we had 'Christ's law' and other slush, so the unfit crowded and contaminated the fit...

    Should we not rather breed humanity for quality by killing off any tainted stock? And exterminating the vermin who infect it...


    From 'Science of Survival: Prediction of Human Behavior' - by L Ron Hubbard, 1951:

    The reasonable man quite ordinarily overlooks the fact that people from 2.0 down have no traffic with reason and cannot be reasoned with as one would reason with a 3.0. There are only two answers for the handling of people from 2.0 down on the tone scale , neither one of which has anything to do with reasoning with them or listening to their justification of their acts. The first is to raise them on the tone scale by un-enturbulating some of their theta by any one of the three valid processes .

    The other is to dispose of them quietly and without sorrow. Adders are safe bedmates compared to people on the lower bands of the tone scale. Not all the beauty nor the handsomeness nor artificial social value nor property can atone for the vicious damage such people do to sane men and women. The sudden and abrupt deletion of all individuals occupying the lower bands of the tone scale from the social order would result in an almost instant rise in the cultural tone and would interrupt the dwindling spiral into which any society may have entered. It is not necessary to produce a world of clears in order to have a reasonable and worthwhile social order; it is only necessary to delete those individuals who range from 2.0 down, either by processing them enough to get their tone level above the 2.0 line — a task which, indeed, is not very great, since the amount of processing in many cases might be under fifty hours, although it might also in others be in excess of two hundred — or simply quarantining them from the society.

    A Venezuelan dictator [Juan Vincente Gomez] once decided to stop leprosy. He saw that most lepers in his country were also beggars. By the simple expedient of collecting and destroying all the beggars in Venezuela an end was put to leprosy in that country.

  7. Ho Tai

    Ho Tai Patron Meritorious

  8. Tom_Booth

    Tom_Booth Patron with Honors

    Re: 0101010101

    And suppose my "True Will" is to devote my life to assisting the disabled and destitute?

    There would then be a conflict between "Do What Thou Wilt" and Crowley's apparent opinions on other issues which you quoted. My point being, these are two separate issues and one might hold to or agree with one and not the other.

    You studiously avoid, it seems, making reference to Crowley's commentaries on "Do What Thou Wilt" which are readily available and have been previously quoted in this thread and instead quote his commentaries on other unrelated issues you can more easily disparage.

    The implication of that, it seems to me, is; you are unable to support your contention that Crowley "darkened" Do what thou wilt other than to sidestep the central issue and point a finger at some other discreditable comments Crowley made.

    Let's take up however, the passage you cited and see if it relates, or how it might relate to "Do What Thou Wilt"

    I'm sure you are aware that many, or most, if not all "inspired" writings sport many levels of meaning or interpretation.

    Suppose we take this passage and instead of directing it outward direct it inward? The "Exoteric" or profane meaning is obvious. But lets suppose that there is an esoteric or hidden meaning related to "Do What thou Wilt".

    What, within my own self or my own character is weak or wretched which hinders me from fulfilling my Divine Calling, whatever that may be?

    Fear, Cowardice, Doubt, Envy, Sloth, Indifference, etc.

    These are the things which should be trampled underfoot.

    I'm not saying that this is, or was, Crowley's interpretation necessarily, or the "right" interpretation. Indeed, I might be accused of making a silk purse of a sows ear, nevertheless, I would say that each gets out of such passages what they bring to it in many cases.
  9. Tom_Booth

    Tom_Booth Patron with Honors

    I might add that I do not, or should I say, I no longer agree with or subscribe to Darwin's theory of "Natural Selection".

    It is quite worthwhile, if one can find the time or has the inclination, to study the work of one of Darwin's contemporaries, a one time friend of Darwin who became a rival and who had an alternative and quite Brilliant theory of Evolution based on metaphysical ideas and concepts.

    The man was St. George Jackson Mivart and he named his theory "Psychogenesis".

    Mivart's Psychogenic Theory of Evolution is Masterful and puts Darwin's reasoning on the subject to shame. Mivart's theories anticipate facts, the reality of which are coming to light only through some of the most advanced theories and discoveries in modern quantum physics. He transcended the petty squabbles between Science and Religion and seizes hold of of a metaphysical TRUTH.
  10. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

    No, of course you don't dear.
  11. Free Being Me

    Free Being Me Crusader

    Poe's Law?
  12. Free Being Me

    Free Being Me Crusader

    By the way, Mr. Crowley, your statement is nearly identically posted on a different forum. No doubt the people at that forum are sighing with collective relief you've moved on. Copy & paste self serving/confirmation biases ad infinitum. Yawn.

    We're all figments of Tom's hallucinations
    His Psychogenic Theory of Evolution is Masterful and puts Darwins
    reasoning on the subject to shame. Mivarts theories anticipate facts,
    the reality of which are comming to light only through some of the
    most advanced theories and discoveries in moderm quantum physics.
    He transcended the petty squabbles between Science and Religion
    and seizes hold of of a metaphysical TRUTH.
  13. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Re: 0101010101

    Your "True Will" is not the topic. The topic, which I addressed, was the phrase "Do what thou wilt," and the public perception of that phrase - to the extent to which the public is aware of it at all.


    Not the least bit interested in discrediting Crowley. In fact, I have great fondness for my collection of Crowley's writings, mostly accumulated from various locations in Manhattan and San Francisco over thirty years ago.

    However, unlike you, I am not a Crowleyite; and, I must say, your attempt to weasel word on behalf of the Beast 666 is nothing short of disgraceful.
  14. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

    Well Claire, it's called sarcasm. Do you understand it any better now?
  15. Claire Swazey

    Claire Swazey Spokeshole, fence sitter

    I rarely use "huh" to mean that I don't understand a post; nor did I here. And the occasions where I don't recognize sarcasm are so rare as to be almost non existent.
  16. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband
  17. Claire Swazey

    Claire Swazey Spokeshole, fence sitter

    I do not click links or YouTube embeds that comprise the entirety of a post.
  18. Tom_Booth

    Tom_Booth Patron with Honors

    No, not if I understand the insinuation implied by your reference.

    Have you read any of Mivart's writings on the subject of Psychogenetic evolution ? He was a far cry from your modern day fundamentalist "Creationist".

    BTW Darwin himself, in his early writings was a Creationist. (Darwin believed in creation and that life was first created by God - See: "The Variation of Animals and Plants Under Domestication"

    Mivart was a metaphysician. Though he equated evolution with "derivative creation" his scientific analysis of How this took place and continues to take place was hardly compatible with mainstream Christianity or the concept of creation as generally espoused by the Church.

    He was eventually excommunicated and his writings placed on the Index

    As a result, his books are quite rare, though today they can be found reproduced on the internet.

    When I first ordered Mivar'ts books through interlibrary loan years ago (before the internet), they came from the rare book archives and I was not allowed to so much as turn the pages or make photocopies. The books also came with some kind of notice. The librarian first asked me if I was Catholic, as, apparently, the works I was interested in were still on the Index (Forbidden reading to Catholics).

    Mivart was excommunicated by the church, rejected by Science, His writings banned, but IMO his theory of Psychogenesis was far ahead of it's time and quite compatible with the "New Physics".

    By "New Physics" I mean generally any modern scientific hypothesis which suggests "mind" has some "role to play at the material level of reality" or that "consciousness plays a role in quantum processes".

    Mivart postulated not that "God" was responsible for Creation/evolution but that evolution took place due to an "internal force" - psyche or mind. In other words, life Wills itself to evolve.

    The theory of "Natural Selection" admittedly explains nothing in terms of why new forms or varieties of life come into being. It makes about as much sense as saying new computing technologies evolve or come into being because old computers are tossed in the landfill.

    Mivart explained how such an "internal force" or psychic vibrations were responsible for changes in material form by citing the phenomenon of Chiladni Figures:

  19. Tom_Booth

    Tom_Booth Patron with Honors

    I thought it bore repeating.
  20. Cat Daddy

    Cat Daddy Silver Meritorious Patron