ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at

Is Scientology Imploding? Watching the Panic after Debbie Cooks email

Discussion in 'Tony Ortega' started by Free to shine, Jan 3, 2012.

  1. NCSP

    NCSP Patron Meritorious

    LOL, thanks. It reminded me of the "Funniest Joke in the World" sketch from Monty Python. Just replace laughter with enturbulation.
  2. GoNuclear

    GoNuclear Gold Meritorious Patron

    First, welcome aboard. Next, I must say something a little harsh ... the sooner you walk, the faster you will cut your losses on a losing proposition. You are throwing your money down an endless rathole. It is worse than shelling out again and again for repairs to a car that you know you should haul off to a junk yard. Let's face it ... even if you are dealing with a rustbucket with a bad engine, need of a brake job and a complete reworking of the suspension ... if you toss about 10k into it, you should be able to fix everything. It might only be worth 3k when you are done, but you will at least have a car that works with all the body work done, new brakes, new suspension parts, new engine, etc. But with Scientology, 10k is just getting started, and it will only get worse. After dropping 10k you will have no special abilities and essentially be no closer to becoming a true OT. If you dropped 10k several dozens of times over you might be further "up the bridge" but you will still have no special abilities or be any more free and still have at a minimum several hundred thousand more dollars to spend to get anywhere, and that is not counting IAS donations or ideal org donations or plane fares to Clearwater or any of the other expenses you will incur. You will look around and see friends who have deployed their resources elsewhere that are making their lives definitely better, while you are living in a rathole of an apartment and driving a piece of shit4car or taking the bus and paying off rediculous credit card debt. You will have gotten what ... a few pats on the back and some very short term emotional highs after some auditing sessions, if that. And this road to "total freedom" you are on ... how does getting hauled into the office of some asshole who wants to restrict your life just because you read something ... how does that fit? The sooner you tell them to all take a flying leap through a rolling doughnut the happier you will be. It might seem a bit confusing, but, all of us here on ESMB have gone through it. Just leave those b'tards and you will come to realize after awhile that you have taken back your life and that leaving was the right decision.

  3. Stat

    Stat Gold Meritorious Patron

    Hi, The Auditor!
    I used to be one too.
    Also forgive me if I suspect you
    to be an OSA or a bored Anon.
    I'm funny like that, as an ex.
    Either way, it's all good, really.
    Keep on posting here and welcome!
    I mean it, no matter who you are. :)

    P.S. And yes, Debbie Cook' email made RTC very concerned.
    And for a good reason. Please, ask more questions and lurk more, The Auditor.
    Wish you well.
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2012
  4. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    Yes. Really bad indeed.

    But not as bad as checking out my Robot Auditor, online now since 2006 and still going strong. There's Ruds and an L1C here, for your professional as-an-auditor perusal. Might as well be hanged for a sheep as a lamb, right? :biggrin:

  5. Kookaburra

    Kookaburra Gold Meritorious Patron

    It would be interesting to see people hauled into ethics and roasted for the unforgivable crime of following LRH policy. They might start to wake up and ask questions.

    I don't know that he's quite ready for a robot auditor, Paul!
  6. RogerB

    RogerB Crusader

    Kooka wrote:
    I don't know that he's quite ready for a robot auditor, Paul!

    I dunno about this Kooka . . . haven't we already accused all them "innies" of being robotic :biggrin: and not now able to think for themselves?

    Maybe a real robot will be an improvement! :yes: At least Paul's version of the robot behaves more rationally and standardly :yes:

    But seriously, The Auditor . . . welcome to this gang of free spirits . . . even though visiting here will cause more grief to you and the CofS than the High Crime of reading Debbie's "Knowledge Report" :dieslaughing::dieslaughing:

    It seems, from your post, you are taking your first steps away from the abuse of the Org. Well done on that. It's a braver better world out here :yes:

  7. Kookaburra

    Kookaburra Gold Meritorious Patron

    Hello Auditor. Welcome to the board.

    First off, I want to thank you for dropping in and giving us a glimpse of what is going on inside. Many people here have family members and friends currently in Scn and due to Miscavige's disconnection policy we can only sit here and worry about them and wait till they either blow, get declared, or corporate Scn collapses.

    I would be cautious about having too much trust in management. Most of past management is declared. Many of them are on this board. Some are "Independant Scientologists" trying to warn people about corporate Scientology. Such as Inspector General Marty Rathbun and CO OSA Int Mike Rinder. What is left of the current management is also mostly declared and are off post in "The Hole" doing A-E on the Int base. There is currently NO Exec Strata, NO CMO Int, NO RTC. Meanwhile David Miscavige is living a life of luxury that would make a TV evangelist green with envy and having an affair with his "communicator" since his wife Shelly was "disappeared" after the crime of making a decision on her own.

    CoS has lots to hide and that is why the wild over reaction to you reading an email. It's MWH phenomena.

    Lots of reading ahead for you. :biggrin:

    Welcome to the world of think for yourself.
  8. Kookaburra

    Kookaburra Gold Meritorious Patron

    Isn't that what DM tried to create with GAT? :whistling:
  9. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    I thought he might appreciate the idea. It is so impossible according to Hubbard, but run through a few screens and you might find yourself automatically going into session with stuff getting brought to mind despite yourself. Dangerous things, new ideas. They can lead down new avenues. :)

  10. RogerB

    RogerB Crusader

    Touché . . . :yes:

    Thankfully, I was spared GAT. I was out before that shite hit the fan :yes:

  11. Jump

    Jump Operating teatime

    Someone should do the movie..

    'The Great GAT Spree'

  12. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    Back in around 1996 or so, myself and a friend, who was on OT VII, were cruising the Internet. We came across Captain Bill's web site. Both of us had read lots of conspiracy books previously, and CBR's stuff was such a wonderful and nutty blend of 1) alien space-opera conspiracy theories, 2) New World Order conspiracy theories, and 3) Scientology.

    So, we spent a few days reading everything.

    At some point I was getting OSA Sec Checks for some "serious offenses", and this came up. My friend was in another state at the time and was IMMEDIATELY ORDERED TO FLAG by HCO. He had to put his life on hold, close up shop for his business for about 4-5 days, and "report to Flag". It was typical Church of Scientology created "dev-T".

    He told me a few days later that he was pulled into a room by OSA. He had his "head ripped off for about 20 minutes", with the usual loud, noisy, and angry in-your-face threats of "do you want to lose your eternity"? "Are you an SP"? "Do you support the enemy"? "Who did you talk to about this"?

    It went on an on.

    This brutal OSA attack on him occurred because he simply LOOKED at an "alternative viewpoint"! :ohmy: :duh:

    Alternative viewpoints have NEVER been tolerated by Hubbard or in Scientology. The view has always been, "agree with us - completely", or else.

    This sort of typical and all-too-common Scientology "handling" always killed me, because Scientology is promoted as a subject and practice that is suppossed to create people who have "high confront", who can "communicate with anything at any time, freely and comfortably", and who have "improved awareness to differentiate among data". Except that in Scientology you are FORBIDDEN from doing so!!!!!! :confused2:

    Of course, I did so, but that meant that I was always observing an endless stream of contradictions and "outpoints" about Hubbard & Scientology. I generally kept these things to myself, having come to understand full well what happens to any person who speaks up and out in anything but 100% rah-rah-rah agreement and support for all things Scientology.

    Back in around 1994 I was working at CCHR in Clearwater. I routinely spoke to the CO OSA during that period. He overheard me talking to another public person about a book I had recently read, The Gods of Eden, written by William Bramley. He rushed into the room and gave us a severe R-factor, with mocked up Tone 40 anger, basically informing us that we were NOT allowed to read that book (or Bill Cooper's Behold a Pale Horse).

    He pulled out a local Flag SO ED that explained WHY staff and public could NOT read these books. The given reason was because such "material" was "distracting public and staff" from the greater and more serious of goals of "expanding Scientology" and "handling Earth". Of course, it referred to KSW and pointed out that reading such data was "electrifying the readers", and pulling them away from "keeping Scientology working".

    The real reasons were because Bramley was obviously an ex-Scientologist (declared I believe), and Cooper had negative things to say about Scientology. Anyway, I politely told him that I would continue to read whatever I liked and that I would make up my own mind about such things. Of course, he didn't like that, and he spent about ANOTHER 20 minutes trying to "handle" me. :biggrin:

    Scientology - where the stupid NEVER sleeps! :yes:
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2012
  13. Tiger Lily

    Tiger Lily Gold Meritorious Patron

    EXACTLY!!!! Very well said! This kind censorship should be a red flag for anyone associated with the CofS.

    p.s. I had the exact same experience with Gods of Eden , pretty much scripted word for word. I didn't like being censored then either, but still though the CofS was looking out for my best interestes . . . :eyeroll:
  14. EP - Ethics Particle

    EP - Ethics Particle Gold Meritorious Patron

    I happened by chance to read "Gods of Eden" probably around 2005 or so while I was still pretty much "in". It was and is a pretty interesting book and I was concerned for Bramley and actually wrote him a letter asking if he knew how closely his writing parralleled Scientology "scripture" :gag: and sort of warning him to watch his back if he did not know that as there could be retaliation and attack from the zealot fringe of Scientology.

    Bramley wrote me a very courteous reply stating that he was not and had never been a Scientologist and wished me well in whatever endeavors I might undertake. Wish I had retained the letter, but I did not!

    Interesting to me now is that I knew then somewhat of the dark side of Scientology - but continued on for some time, not willing to write it all off as a cult and scam even then.

    But I did know enough to "keep my mouth shut" about it - that much I HAD learned about Scientology and its lunatic fringe.

    It never came up in session or the seemingly endless "sec checks" and ethics programs that we (I think) all had to suffer through just to get "in session" ...often to waste countless precious (as then perceived) hours of auditing time chasing some horrendous overt such as masturbation or lusting for a particularly luscious auditor! :blush: TITS were often desired but sometimes difficult and costly to reach! :eyeroll::dieslaughing:

    What fools we mortals be....:coolwink:

  15. Re: Panic after Debbie Cooks email

    I suggest everyone thoroughly explore this link and the other links related to it for much good information that might not be widely known. They did start an American branch of F.U.S.S.
    (I only wish they had come up with the name of F.L.A.P. : Families Laboring Against Persecution!)

    This highlights for me the reason why EVERYONE should get informed and be concerned about Scientology:



    Jim Siegelman: "Of all the cult groups that we have studied over the last
    2 decades now, Scientology has shown itself consistently to be the most
    effective in terms of recruiting
    and, more importantly, potentially the
    most damaging in terms of its effects on its members.

    Vaughn Young: "Hubbard literally had a plan for world conquest. He actually
    literally wanted to take over the world, but he had to put it in other
    terms. The term he came up with was "clear the planet." This sounds like a
    very beneficent action: we're going to "clear the planet" which means
    'rid it of its problems' but really it was more of a case like a Hitler:
    he wants to rid the planet of vermin. The vermin are the people who are
    stopping him and these were basically the enemies of Scientology."

    Russell Miller: "Ron Hubbard was a charlatan, a liar, a confidence
    trickster, a thief. He invented his whole life. He invented a career to
    substantiate himself as the guru of Scientology."

    Interviewer: "Do you ever think that you might be... quite mad?"
    L Ron Hubbard: "Oh yes! The one man in the world who never believes he is
    mad is a madman." [smirk]

    Stacy Young [on David Miscavige]: "His viciousness and his cruelty to staff
    was unlike anything I had ever experienced in my life.
    He wanted me to
    carry out a lot of his vindictive orders... He just loved to degrade the
    . He got a kick out of it: he thought it was funny. Anyone who didn't
    think it was funny, like I didn't, was very suspect."

    Sea Org member [persuading undercover reporter to join]: "Here it's just
    like very dedicated... you get berth and fed and... Our purpose is really
    big, because to clear Earth takes a long long time. We're talking about 5
    billion people on this planet."

    That's the big picture reason folks, of why Scientology is harmful and dangerous for all of us, even those people who have never been involved in it and have no interest in the subject.

    Through the actions of it's various front groups, Corporate Scientology is attempting to expand into society at large, to infiltrate and influence different areas of society; business, education, medicine, social work, mental health, local government, etc.

    The big picture effort is not just about saving those currently in COS from Scientology, or of saving Scientologists from's about saving ALL OF US from Scientology.
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2012
  16. :) Welcome new member The Auditor, I'm glad that you joined us! :wave:
    ...sorry that you are experiencing this unfair ethics action, but I trust that you will be able to see the truth for yourself about your circumstances and the actions of this group you have allied yourself with. :thumbsup:

    While you are here, you might benefit from taking a look around and reading other Auditor's stories and seeing how they handled injustice in their lives, etc. Good for you for being able to look. Don't let anyone curtain your freedom to look or to think for yourself, or to communicate.

    Wishing you all the best. Let us know how things are going for you in the future. Many of us here care about you and the others like you who may be in your same, or similar situations.

    With ARC from Sweetness
  17. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    Re: Panic after Debbie Cooks email

    Lucky they didn't call themselves Families Against Persecution. The thing about acronyms is they might be safe when you start out but who knows about five years down the road?

  18. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    He lied. But then, what else is new? Lying is SOP for Scientology-trained and Scientology-influenced people.

    After I read the book it was OBVIOUS that he must have had contact with more than a little Scientology "data". I can't recall the details now, having read the book almost 20 years ago, but he outlines things like "greatest good", "ethics", etc.

    I never researched this before today, because as I said it was OBVIOUS that he MUST have been a Scientologist at some earlier point in his life. I have come to trust my "gut instincts", because too often when I do take the time to verify what I "grok", it turns out to be just as I anticipated (by intuition).

    Here is what I came up with after searching Google for 2 minutes:

    From The Gods of Eden by William Bramley, reviewed by Jim Keith:

    "What has not been talked about is that there is a hidden purpose to the book, and that is to disseminate Church of Scientology concepts to the UFO field. It's not that Bramley glancingly touches upon material also covered in Scientology; he uses the bullhorn for basic, elementary Scientology principles without mentioning their source, and does it again and again in the pages of the book. I probably wouldn't even mention the matter except for the wide agreement which the book has engendered (even Milton William Cooper references the book like it was UFO gospel) --and people should know what they're agreeing with.

    I could go on listing sneaky Scientology references in Bramley -- there are no shortage -- but frankly I'm bored with combing through the book. As an ex-Scientologist more than familiar with the ingroup cant, I can tell you that Bramley is, without a doubt, a Scientologist who is trying to sell the Hubbard line throughout."

    Jim Keith is the editor of Secret and Suppressed: Banned Ideas and Hidden History, available from Feral House, and Casebook on Alternative 3: UFOs, Secret Societies, and World Control, available from IllumiNet Press.

    I read all Jim's books back in the day. He was a Scientologist for 13 years!

    Possibly, the "purpose" of Bramley's book was to "introduce" the UFO crowd to Hubbard's Scientology ideas by relating these ideas to typical extant "conspiracy theories". That he LIED about having been a Scientologist is telling. I did hear from somewhere that he had been "declared". Check out the above link of the review by Keith because he goes over MANY chapters of the book, explaining WHICH Hubbard "datum" is being reinforced.

    From, Who really wrote The Gods of Eden?:

    "This was a pen name for Tore B. Dahlin, and in my opinion, Tore is merely a front for whoever’s work this book actually was. A ghost-written work, in other words.

    Tore Dahlin left the Church of Scientology in the early 1980’s. 14 years later, an HCO Non-Enturbulation Order was put out on him. (Scientology Justice action)"

    From Kristi Wachter's web site:

    Clear 11,774 TORE DAHLIN, Manor Hotel

    This taken from SO ED 4577 INT, 2 June 1995, which can also be viewed HERE:

    "The author, William Bramley, whose real name is Tore Dahlin, is an ex-Scientologist and former staff member. Dahlin was also a member of a declared suppressive squirrel group for over 2 years and admitted to being in Scientology for the purpose of obtaining information from the Church to give it to the squirrel group."

    And, this paragraph from the SO ED is just more of the typical "DON'T LOOK HERE" Scientology enforcement:

    "If you run across this book or a Scientologist who is reading it or promoting it, alert the International Justice Chief and ensure that the person is routed to the Cramming officer of his or her org and crammed/hatted on HCO PL 14 February 1965, SAFEGUARDING TECHNOLOGY and HCO PL 7 February 1965, KEEPING SCIENTOLOGY WORKING."

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 22, 2012
  19. So much for pan-determinism, huh? :confused2: :duh:

    Rather than making people more able, Scientology indoctrination seems to disable them...

    This is just a huge outpoint for me...being told what you can read, what you can look at on the Internet, who you can communicate with, what you can discuss...what you should think. :ohmy:

    How is this not totalitarianism? I ask you?
  20. Good twin

    Good twin Floater

    This is funny because I read "Gods of Eden" while at Flag getting auditing in the HGC. I remember Rick Alexander (Class XII) recommending that I read "Behold a Pale Horse" when he saw me reading "Gods of Eden". I guess he hadn't been handled yet.