ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at

Is Scientology really that bad?

Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by Voodoo, Jul 6, 2019.

  1. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    Wham! Bam! Thank you MaMS!

    You must be psychic! You've confused the book on Amazon with the book I am composing.

    "The Amendment, Revised, Corrected and Refined" (Amazon, $6.00) is about the Amendment to The Constitution which I am proposing and you can easily introduce yourself to it as The Conway Daily Sun published the first draft in January 2016 and has it on their website.

    Just google "Birdwood/Amendment" and it will be the top item

    But an examination of Hubbard's work from a Judeochristian Universalist perspective in a COAS Manifesto which I MUST write should be readable
  2. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    I knew you were in for years and thought you had once said 20 but that was another poster.

    I did HAS Course, Student Hat and HSDC in SAN Francisco '71-'72, Went back east and hung aroung the great Bobby Ford's Cambridge Mission until late August when that intense wild wailin' Texas boho Gordon Bell known on ESMB as "Mystic" blew through on Tours from FCDC and caught me up in his slipstream and I was on staff both orgs in Washington until June 4th 1974 when some whacked out Third party Apollo mission pulled me off post and put me on GO lines which combined with some other outrageous horsecrap was enough for me...

    Then after that...
  3. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    Too late now to get a real mate, don't exactly know why but when the divorce from Hell came down in 1980 and I was a handsome kind gentle but strong young buck I knew then...

    ???? Why should this have been ????

    Perhaps because a great passion is always chaste...

    But I knew then there would be no second mate. I've always had to keep the dream of it alive in spite of the certainty repeatedly reinforced in space maintained by the several enamorata it would never come again...

    Now primarily a "responsible for condition case" is someone who is all fucked up and says Scientology fucked them up. In more general terms it is anyone who will not take personal responsibility for their condition regardless of how it came to be.
    Me and My Self likes this.
  4. Me and My Self

    Me and My Self Self-born, Autogamous Unicorn

    Thank you.
    In fact I was indeed referring to the "Amendment" book on Amazon ... (checked TCDS website but no draft there?)
    So, I'd like to read BOTH then.
    Anyway should you need help with setting up a blog or sorts to promote your books, just let me know.;)
  5. pineapple

    pineapple Silver Meritorious Patron

    No "examination of Hubbard's work from a Judaeochristian Universalist perspective" would be complete without mentioning the fact that Hubbard said Christ and Heaven were implants. So I hope you'll include that.

    Scientology and Christianity are not compatible. If you believe otherwise you're deluded.

    "For a long time, people have been cross with me for my lack of co-operation in believing in a Christian Heaven, God and Christ. I have never said I didn’t disbelieve in a Big Thetan but there was certainly something very corny about Heaven et al. Now I have to apologize. There was a Heaven. Not too unlike, in cruel betrayal, the heaven of the Assassins in the 12th Century who, like everyone else, dramatized the whole track implants – if a bit more so."

    Here's the whole bulletin, posted a few years back by HelluvaHoax (thanks, HH)
    Type4_PTS and Xenu Xenu Xenu like this.
  6. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

    You seem to have misread my post William, I didn't say 'get a real mate', I said you need to GET REAL (face up to reality) mate. Of course, some people would rather just simply patronise you than be calculatedly mean-spirited like me, but I'd rather see you take personal responsibility for your condition and get your shit together than just wallow in self-pity the way you seem to enjoy doing.

    We've all seen hard times; my beautiful wife dumped me because she couldn't take the beans 'n' rice austerity that I'd brought her to. Then I lost my job and ended up living in a dilapidated and abandoned caravan in the middle of a farmer's muddy field in midwinter with no heating - are you reaching for the Kleenex yet? No? OK, there's more. I've slept on beaches, I've slept in cars and I've been penniless and found myself having to sleep in open-all-night bars on the Reeperbahn in Hamburg where I relied on the kind hearts of the local prostitutes, who bought me enough sausage and potato salad to keep me alive. Don't tell me about hard times William, I've got the fucking T-shirt. When the German owners of the attic that I eventually found to sleep in discovered me (because it was wintertime, the attic was freezing, and despite being warned not to do so by the girl whose parents owned the attic I turned on an electric heater and they noticed the extra usage) instead of throwing me out onto the street, they bought me a ticket back to London and even packed me some food to eat on the journey. When I got there I had to fight to gain entrance to a hovel that stank of cat's piss, where the cooking facility was an upturned electric fire and where you'd be prosecuted for allowing your dog to live. I lied my ass off on job applications to get out of the deep shit I was in because my self-respect simply wouldn't allow me to stay in those conditions. I just think it's time that you found some of your own self-respect that's all, and if it takes my goading and insulting you to do it, well, the end justifies the means as far as I'm concerned.
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019
  7. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    They were simply patronising you.


    In all seriousness, had you met Birdie 40 or so years ago (presumably around the time all of this happened to you) you may have helped him by using 'tough love' but he is now close to 70 and I doubt your goading and insulting is doing him any good whatsoever.

    phenomanon, Clay Pigeon and Bill like this.
  8. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    Nor any harm...

    Live communication even low on the tone scale is still live communication
  9. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron



    Yeah, I'm well familiar with Hubbard's writing and if you want to call Scientology incompatible with Christianity go ahead.

    Dianetics most certainly is not incompatible with Christianity nor any of the lower grades all of which may be regarded as dianetic processes.

    We are directed by Our Saviour to love our neighbors. Study Hubbard's work as a Christian and maintain your personal integrity and you can gain superb and effective tools for practical application.



    As you are not a professing Christian, why do you think yourself fit to so judge?
  10. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron


    Vivre la vie boheme!

    I've done well with the hard times Stratsie. And it is true I'm guilty of wallowing in self pity over a lack of a mate.


    You have missed out on separation from children. It hurts. And my firstborn son dead four years before anyone would tell me...


    Trust me on this...

    You don't know how hard I got whacked back in 1975. The only person I've met who has been whacked harder was a POW in the Hanoi Hilton for three and a half years. Weighed 225 when I knew him but only 106 pounds when he came off a plane on a stretcher. I spent some quality time doing 2wc with the dude and got some very clean vgi's out of him and, once again, I just couldn't have done that w/o my auditor training.

    Currently, the years have gotten to me and since my car was stolen I'm sleeping on the concrete. I've been expecting my current project with the amendment to net me some cash, some support and some assistance and it still might but my advanced COPD, atrial flutter and the years have me a bit down...


    You've got the grist for a readable memoir there stratsie m'lad...

    I suggest you read "I Jan Kremer" for some inspiration
  11. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    It's still up on the TCDS site.

    Google "Birdwood Amendment" and the link to TCDS is on the first page.
  12. Me and My Self

    Me and My Self Self-born, Autogamous Unicorn

    Been there, done that, no draft (unless you are referring to the "The proposed 28th Amendment to the Constitution" end paragraph of that article).
    No link to a draft elsewhere. :confused:
  13. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

    You just don't get it do you? What I wrote was all true, but it was sarcasm William. I could fill pages and pages with descriptions of the crap I've been through in my life, starting with being born into the world's most dysfunctional family, and that probably goes for many of the posters here, but who gives a shit?
    tesseract likes this.
  14. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron


    Try again. I was just there. I checked when you said you couldn't find it

    TCDS published it in a letter to the editor which is one of my very best pieces of writing ever
  15. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    People who read books. That's who. Sarcasm hell, you were boasting!

    It takes five untimely corpses minimum to be in contention for most dysfunctional family...
  16. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

    The Bible is part of Western culture. Even if you're an atheist, you are not fully educated if you haven't read it. Similarly, Shakespeare and other works defining the West.
    Clay Pigeon likes this.
  17. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    live communication is not profound, even low on the so called tone scale.

    Your live communication is filled with rhetoric and bullshit.

    How many people you audit to clear? How many people you bring up the tone scale?

    Other than Billy Martin and his wife?
    tesseract and strativarius like this.
  18. pineapple

    pineapple Silver Meritorious Patron

    Okay, I will. Scientology is incompatible with Christianity.
    "ENEMY — SP Order. Fair game. May be deprived of property or injured by any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of the Scientologist. May be tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed."

    Does that sound very Christian to you? What about "love your enemies"? What about "turn the other cheek," eh?

    And don't give me any BS about Fair Game being canceled. That policy only cancels the use of the term "Fair Game" on ethics orders. That was only a PR move.
    That's like saying "You're not a professing Scientologist, so how can you judge Scientology?" Would you assert that someone not currently practicing scn can't judge scn? I WAS a professing Christian, and I know what it's about. I went to 12 years of Catholic school, including high school with the Jesuits. I had a cousin who spent her entire life as a nun. I've read most of the Bible, both new and old testaments.

    I consider myself fit to judge because I am a human being with a brain who can see that a religion that mocks and denigrates Christianity is not compatible with it.

    You, on the other hand, seem to be talking about some fantasy version of scn that exists only in your own mind. It bears little resemblance to the real thing, something you're either unwilling or unable to confront.
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
    Type4_PTS, lotus, Enthetan and 4 others like this.
  19. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
  20. pineapple

    pineapple Silver Meritorious Patron

    Not to make light of your hard times, Strat, but the above sentence keeps cracking me up. Reminds me of some of the funnier parts of Naked Lunch ...

    "So there I am trapped three weeks in the headwaters of the Upper Baboonasshole and half the bearers down with the aftosa. Achmed, that little sneak, switched my cocaine with Saniflush, so I set up a meet to buy more.

    When I got there I had to fight to gain entrance to a hovel that stank of cat piss. Most disgusting thing I ever stood still for."
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019