ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at www.exscn2.net.



Is there any good in Scientology?

Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by Wedinn, Dec 28, 2018.

Tags:
View Users: View Users
  1. pineapple

    pineapple Silver Meritorious Patron

    Well, there's this PhD thesis from 1953. Long story short, they found that dianetic therapy did not improve scores on standardized tests, contrary to dianetic claims.

    http://www.xenu.net/archive/fischer/Fischer_Title.html
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2018
    JustSheila likes this.
  2. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    Now if you take a look at the Chart of Human Evaluation on which SOS is based you will find in the column "subjects handling of truth" that at the 2.0 level of Antagonism truth is twisted to fit the antagonism with flaws embellished and exagerated.

    1 and 2. Hubbard said it was Polly who abandoned him; whatever really happened we know not and ex-mates are exceptionally unreliable sources. With Sara (who may have been the hottest bed buddy Elron ever had) he tried desperately to keep them together but apparently because the stupid sonofabitch couldn't keep his pecker in his pants she went off on him big time. There are no ER admissions nor police blotter entries in either tryst. Nibs worked with his father for years and walked off on his own two feet. Nibs sister is virtually unknown but was quietly working for Scn in LA in the seventies. Ron and Mary Sue raised four children, the eldest Diana is still an executive in the church nor have Arthur or Suzette made any contribution to those who despise their father

    3. There was a falling out with Purcell. The true particulars are unknown. Hubbard was certainly well known to be feisty and willful

    4. The claim against the VA was three years before DMSMH

    5. Yes. Many veterans do brag falsely of their service. That Ron had remorse for so doing is evident in "The Admissions"

    6. and 7. Absolute poppyrot

    8. If the IRS has a case they prosecute. No IRS prosecution was ever filed.

    9. Apparently so.

    10. Hubbard comes out of a Hollywood tradition of publicity stories and mariners are known to tell tall tales. His poetic lisence was in good order and fiction is a torch lit in darkness

    11. Intelectual property law is such that Hubbard was in his rights to sign his name to works done in his bailiwick.

    12. Maybe so but brainwashing was certainly a common practice in the Soviet Union
     
  3. pineapple

    pineapple Silver Meritorious Patron

    I have no problem with people studying or experimenting with the stuff. But CoS won't let you do that, as I'm sure you realize.

    And if the tech is so good, why the horsecrap? Why is the organization so fucked up? Shouldn't LRH's wonderful tech have produced a hierarchy of enlightened beings?
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2018
  4. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

     
  5. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    Obviously because the bipeds infesting this bright blue orb in space are entirely a festering mass of assholes.

    Still...

    With but a few fairly small adjustments most of them based on policy as written the thing could be of great value and service to mankind, as indeed it has been. DMSMH was published the year after Stalin got The Bomb and set it's crosshairs on the potential for nuclear holocaust and it is contended dianetics has been a significant influence on those who shaped the course of history
     
  6. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

    So now we know what CP thinks of his fellow human beings. Very interesting. Having told us about your strong christian faith, well, that doesn't sound at all christian to me.
     
  7. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    I've got a long history of pro bono work Stratsie. So far as I can, which has been pretty far I try to love my fellow biped but...

    As Ben Johnson observed "Men act like beasts to avoid the pain of being human"

    As to it being christian, it does appear that The Nazarene thought we were a festering mass of assholes and can cite his own demise as evidence.
     
  8. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

    Yes, somebody gave you the opportunity to do a bit of proselyting for your hero L Ron Hubbard by starting this thread, but after hearing this tired old screed from you time and time again one wonders why you bother. You're not going to make many converts here mate, this is the last place on earth your pathetic bigging up of the crock of shit known as scientology is going to get any traction, so who are you trying to convince?
     
  9. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    There's a spectrum of opinion among former students Stratsie. I've used what I learned often with frequent good results


    I don't view Hubbard as "heroic" nor am I his proselyte; he is an enigmatic figure.


    Nor is this the last place to speak well of Hubbard's work; ESMB is open to differences of opinion
     
  10. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    The e-meter and what the reads and reactions mean is a complete deception.

    You can say or imagine anything, even run Bugs Bunny cartoons and you will eventually find something humorous or get bored enough and the needle will F/N. That's how so many people can run lifetimes of having been Jesus. You can make it up, you can run cartoons, you can even run abstract art. I'm not kidding, I'm totally serious! The e-meter and the reads have nothing to do with running things in or out. It has nothing to do with blowing charge and is no sort of verification of past lives or anything like that. The e-meter and the definitions of needle reactions are a hoax.

    That's not to say that it isn't helpful to talk about your problems to someone who listens. You don't need an e-meter for that, though.
     
    TheOriginalBigBlue and Type4_PTS like this.
  11. guanoloco

    guanoloco As-Wased

    What's up, doc?
     
  12. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    Oh, I'm so keyed in you said that. Now I'll have to run that out. Hold on...

    Why you, you, you wiley wabbit! :grouch:


    Oh, I feel so much better now! :cloud9:
     
  13. guanoloco

    guanoloco As-Wased

    Wascawee Wabbit!
     
  14. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    Scientology is absolutely full of deceptions.

    Fraudulent Marketing - selling services that promised extraordinary abilities but failing to deliver.

    Assuring new people Scientology is compatible with all the major world religions when that's an absolute lie. (Hubbard teaches on the advanced levels that the world religions are a result of implants we've received millions of years ago).

    Dozens of lies about Hubbard including about his education, research he claimed to do, his military record, and much more.

    To fully answer your question would take a book of 800+ pages I don't have time to write this evening.

    There's many great sources of information out there (including here on ESMB) from people who personally knew Hubbard, some of whom worked directly with him for years.

    EDIT: Earlier in this thread HelluvaHoax! gave a specific example of deception, here in this post:
    http://www.forum.exscn.net/threads/is-there-any-good-in-scientology.49208/#post-1192416

    Hubbard and his "church" continued selling Dianetics books for many years, even after he acknowledged that the techniques in that book couldn't Clear someone, yet there were no updates to the book to inform new readers of this critical piece of information.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2018
  15. TomKat

    TomKat Patron Meritorious

    Most of the tech just provides temporary relief. E.g., finding an earlier incident to release a later incident, that seems a lot like distraction, misdirection, changing the subject, etc. Cognitions take you out of your emotions and into the intellect, a distraction. Good enough for the moment, but of how much lasting value? But yes, one can diminish confusion, with assists and what not. There's a lot of good, it's just overrated.
     
  16. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

    .

    Many people do not know that Hitler had a pet dog he was very fond of and he fed it and walked it every day. That shows he has multiple good characteristics.

    Therefore I can, with a clean conscience, highly recommend his book Mein Kampf.

    Stay positive everyone!

    .
     
    Irayam likes this.
  17. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

    HelluvaHoax! likes this.
  18. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

    Quite true!

    However, I will offer a professional opinion on the "research" component of it, since I do know quite a bit about that.

    There are many different levels (standards) of research from the fully informal to the demanding rigors of clinical trials, FDA approvals and other protocols which must be scientifically be demonstrated.

    For a "proper, valid research" project to be done on Hubbard's work, it would first have to MERIT said due diligence.

    examples:

    If I see a neighborhood kool-aid stand, manned by five year olds, that has a sign reading "CURE FOR CANCER 50 CENTS!" no research is required.​

    If I want to buy an Armani suit on Amazon or eBay, it merits a little "research" because a $4,600 suit selling for even half-price is not a good idea to gamble with--even if the seller guarantees no questions returns, cheerfully refunded and they pay for the return shipping. So, let's "research" this a little by reading the REVIEWs, many of which turn out to be nightmarishly bad. Customers complain:​
    • They sent a suit different than the one in the photo.
    • The suit them sent was used, not new as promoted.
    • They would not accept a return and never refunded the $2,250!!!!
    • Scammer! Beware! I returned the suit which was a counterfeit, not Armani!
    • Do not ever buy from this seller. Fraud Alert! They not only didn't refund the money, they charged my charge card an additional $1,000 for shipping! Total Ripoff!
    So, is the research "scientific". No. Doesn't need to be. Just informally reading a few reviews is adequate to the task to conclude one's research.

    Hubbard commits an outrageous fraud on his customers in the 4th word he ever published. Dianetics The Modern Science of Mental Health. There is no science. Anyone who works in technical/scientific fields would know that in 3 minutes.

    The dozens of WEBSITES and DOCUMENTARIES and MAGAZINE ARTICLES and TV PROGRAMS and MOVIES and FORMER SCIENTOLOGIST TESTIMONIALS are all the research needed to know that Scientology is a fraud, a hoax and a criminal enterprise masquerading (in turns) as a SCIENCE, a PHILOSOPHY, a RELIGION and a TECHNOLOGY.

    When a fraud claiming to be a "doctor" and a "nuclear physicist" proclaims to the world that the cure for cancer is to smoke exponentially more cigarettes, that is the end of the research project.

    However, if one endeavors to conduct their own research, like the occasional newbie who pops up on ESMB asking all kinds of questions about the "good parts of Scientology" (as if they are performing due diligence, lol), I say, let 'em go find out for themselves if they are unable/unwilling to "read the reviews" of 100,000 disgruntled customers that were ripped off.

    The internet has tens of thousands of "REVIEWS". If someone wants to debate people who spent decades and hundreds of thousands of dollars, they are entitled to debate. The qualifications to be allowed to debate, however, include this little wrinkle. They must go Clear and OT, and then come back and everyone will welcome them in the debate.

    Until they do that, they don't get the microphone, LOL. They can watch others debate if they enjoy that kind of programming, lol.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2018
    Irayam, Type4_PTS and Edwardo like this.
  19. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on


    Could be...

    Indeed...

    It is contended...

    Congratulations! You win the 2018 MEDAL OF CREDULITY awarded by the IAK (International Association of Koolaiddrinkers).

    On the positive side, at least you have demonstrated a very firm grasp on the concept of ARC.

    AmbiguouslyRidiculousCultspeak.

    .
     
  20. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

    LOL

    Yeah, I went there. LOL

    Hey, your post gave rise to a curious thought.

    Perhaps it is even a Koan.

    Let's assume that before Hitler's birth there was a fictional book that had a genocidal cult leader named Hitler. Then, decades later there was an ACTUAL genocical cult leader named Adolph Hiter.

    Would it have been Godwin's Law if people had claimed in the late 1930s (before WWII) that the real person Adolph Hitler was just like the fictional Hitler character in the novel?

    Meaning, would the fact that the discussion devolved into people drawing that comparison, thereby invoke Godwin's Law and therefore negate the truth and value of the real Hitler being compared to the fictional one, as a method of warning others?

    To wit, does Godwin's Law in any way diminish the value and truth of the comparison? LOL

    My mind goes places like that. It keeps life very interesting.