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It's time to get off the fence

Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by Emma, Feb 19, 2008.

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  1. lionheart

    lionheart Gold Meritorious Patron

    I see almost no validity in the way LRH "researched" - it seemed to be largely based upon strong assertion based upon very little research and then apparent confirmation of what was asserted. No testing appeared to be done to refine the assertion.

    The scientific approach I was taught at school was one of hypothesis, testing, refining of hypothesis, re-testing, etc.

    I think the laughter at the congress that you observed was probably laughter at the apparant paradox of what Ron says he observed. It was quite ironic and amusing.

    From my extensive experience of giving Standard Danetic and New Era Dianetic auditing I observed the following:

    New PCs often got the BD's and wide F/Ns when running a fairly early this lifetime incident. As they received more Dn auditing the needle and Tone Arm would tend to become less volatile until "past lives" were run when I would see the BDs and wide F/Ns that Ron predicted.

    This appeared to validate Ron's assertion. But there is no "Double Blind" testing involved here where a control group would be audited without being given any expectation of past life contact.

    One cannot discount the suggesitibility of PC's and Ron's quite open suggestions of the importance of running past lives. He was a strong charismatic confident-sounding individual, this comes over in his written works, so the power of suggestion cannot be discounted, even in those who never met him.

    Nevertheless I did see the predicted meter and PC indicators when past lives were run.

    Does this mean Ron's hypothesis was correct or does it mean simply that meter phenomena were accurately observed in the early "research"? Or were they wrongly interpreted as to meaning?

    Read Cyril Vosper's book "The MindBenders" for experience of the original past life "research" done under Nib's supervision. You'll get an idea of the atmosphere of expectation amongst the participants. Peer pressure and guru suggestion cannot be discounted as an explanation.

    So what else could explain the meter phenomena and PC indicators?

    One hypothesis could be that the PC is expecting to run former lives, because it has been suggested to him that he will and should. Combined with the fact that this would "prove" his immortality, one would expect him to feel a degree of excitement and anticipation.

    The auditor suggests or asks for an earlier incident and suddenly the PC sees a picture of a different life. His immortality is suddenly "proved" and he expects this picture or an earlier one to explain and be the cause of a this lifetime problem. The relief, and "charge" coming off would loosen the TA and the needle. The PC would start to feel better because he has been led to believe this is the source of his problem. He would brighten up, let go of mental images or trauma, meter blowdown and needle float.

    So the meter and PC indicators could be reacting to expectation fulfilled, and anticipation realised, rather than truth revealed.

    This could be simply tested by having two groups. One is told they should expect to contact former lives and that they need to do so to get beneift. The second control group is not told anything about what could or should happen.

    Each participant would be interviewed before as to expectation and afterwards as to expectations fulfilled or not. The meter behaviour and PC indicators would be recorded during the sessions

    Of course Hubbo never did any such thing. Remember too that per his admissions he believed his words had an hypnotic effect upon people and that he understood and could predict their emotions and psychology. It seems he might well have been correct! :roflmao:
  2. lkwdblds

    lkwdblds Crusader

    Thanks Lionheart

    Lionhart, Thank for the fine post. You answered my question objectively after looking at the question from several angles. You've stated it well, I have nothing more to ask or to add.
  3. Winston Smith

    Winston Smith Flunked Scientology

    out in the field, far away from the fence

    I have known several old timers of Scn. Some say after the journey you realize you are no different than when you began. Others see grave evil in what LRH perpetrated. Some just want to go on with their lives and leave it all in the dustbin. I have also seen promising individuals in other fields be destroyed by being sidetracked into the never-never land.

    It particularly preys on the young, and I must say with great pride I have been able to catch some idealistic young people and save them before ruining their lives. There is no magic answer to life. The best we can do is try to be ethical (NOT in the Scn sense), have our eyes wide open, and keep striving toward our own personal goals. (Not goals set for us by anyone.) The length of time it takes to make our dreams reality is not the criterion.

    From my vantage point, Scn wasted valuable time, and money that could have been used to much better advantage. In the end, it is only a cult of greed with no remorse shown toward its victims, some whom have committed suicide, others who have lost fortunes.

    For me there is no other answer than realizing that Scn has no one's interest at heart and therefore there is no contest about which "side of the fence" to be on. If you think there is such a contest, you are deluded.
  4. Great post! Really, really, well put.

    The Anabaptist Jacques
  5. Winston Smith

    Winston Smith Flunked Scientology

    thank you anabaptist

    Sometimes I feel like I am alone on this site. It does my heart good to have made a point. :)
  6. Sir Facer

    Sir Facer Patron with Honors

    Yes this is a great post!!!

    Hi Winston:coolwink: ,
    Fantastic Posting, this is actually the way it is and creating great lives from now on is definately the key. Take care:thumbsup:
  7. Good twin

    Good twin Floater

    You are definitely NOT alone. I agree too. :yes:
  8. degraded being

    degraded being Sponsor

    I agree with them.

    You made your point in a very straightforward way. A good post.
  9. lisinipril

    lisinipril Patron

  10. SchwimmelPuckel

    SchwimmelPuckel Genuine Meatball

    Support Scientology and you can have it! :) - Hmm.. I and others will work to prevent it though..

    That would be the Cults own job, really! - I disagree anyway.. This board does indeed inform what Scientology really is.

    And I don't get you drift in this post.. Do you think Emma calls for scientologists to fight for their religion?

    Hmm.. She may call for them to quit lying and actually abolish some of the more offensive and evil practices and policies... But I think it's too late for the Sinister Cult of Scientology.. That cult needs to go.. It's high time really!

  11. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

  12. Zinjifar

    Zinjifar Silver Meritorious Sponsor

    ESMB serves its purpose; WWP serves its. We don't need no steenkin lowest common denominator :)

    That said, everybody (even OSA) is allowed on ESMB and, even for the totally ignorant, there are plenty of people willing to do explanations. But, although there is a common community here, there is no 'common purpose' or 'party line' as regards 'activism' and 'what to do'. There are other places for that and, they work well *with* ESMB for those so interested.

    But, if ESMB were a rah rah, shoulder to shoulder git er done type place, I wouldn't bother with it.

  13. lisinipril

    lisinipril Patron

    Hmm.. She may call for them to quit lying and actually abolish some of the more offensive and evil practices and policies... But I think it's too late for the Sinister Cult of Scientology.. That cult needs to go.. It's high time really!

    guess what im asking is. what can a wog do to help.. Emma talked of this fence. its full of current scio people one side and ex's and free zoners on the other. this fence is across the feild from the sidewalk. where *everyone else walks* how can somone who sees injustice on from there vantage point on sidwalk the who doesnt care to practice dianectics or scientology help.

    and keep bringing the fence closer ot sidewalk. some of us wogs are taking notice..
  14. FinallyFree

    FinallyFree Gold Meritorious Patron

    I think this is imprtant. I think this is a major key factor in bringing down the cult. We need to help these people.
  15. Zinjifar

    Zinjifar Silver Meritorious Sponsor

    The best thing a 'wog' can do is educate himself and then decide what *he* wants to do. Not decide what 'other people' should be doing :)

  16. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    There are many ways to oppose the cult or to speak out. Not just one way.
  17. Winston Smith

    Winston Smith Flunked Scientology

    ya know

    sometimes I wish I could press DEL and be done with half the posts here.
    :happydance: :omg:
  18. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    You can press IGNORE and be done with half the posters or half the threads easily enough.

  19. lisinipril

    lisinipril Patron

    Fluffy yes im tottaly ignorant of the ways of scientology also of Psychology and Psychiatry.

    I do like to study religion however. A few years ago as i was zipping back and forth between coast in N.America i would walk into a church, Mosque, or temple, and ask a preacher whats a baptist? or whats greek orthodox? whats shia islam? whats a conservative jew. whats the angel moroni? what does a white mountain apache medicine man do? A Maharishi in Vedic City a town in rural america offered to put me up for the night i asked so many questions.. At the time i never stopped into an org.. never crossed my mind. and i dont know why.

    Scientology is simply the most complicated to me as an outsider.. you cant really talk to current members. and if you talk to an ex its like entereing a message board for retired vets.. the military lingo,ranking structure,etc.

    Fluffy you have been an very intresting guide.. youve poked me with the questions stick as much as ive poked this board. thank you Fluffy
    Last edited: May 31, 2009
  20. Mark A. Baker

    Mark A. Baker Sponsor

    That would possibly be because the target audience for this website is "ex-scientologists" and not "people who dont know of scientology".

    Hint: what does ESMB stand for?

    See also:

    The "cause" was well expressed by Emma on the "Board Rules" & "Board FAQ" pages (see ).

    Evidently your "cause" is not aligned with the purpose of this board. Perhaps you should spend more time on a board that aligns with your own purposes. :)

    Mark A. Baker